3G vs 4G vs 5G

[zulu53]

Now that 5G has been deployed and the 4G service being unloaded when will PM be changing the data service to 4GLTE?   Being one generation behind is acceptable for the lower costs of PM vs Telus but 2 generations - is that not starting to push the bounds of acceptable business practice?  I always compare Canada to Australia (similar country where the population is concentrated in a 50-75 km high band - 3000 km wide).   The costs of PM are about what Optus charge EXCEPT they include 4G LTE.  Should PM put pressure on Telus to give better service?

[computergeek541]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Could I ask an Oracle (or Retired) to extract this one-sided conversation down to the lounge. It's a meaningless self-conversation without context.

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I have added quotes from the of the messages being replied to for the purpsoes of helping make the discussion more understandable.

[darlicious]

@zulu53 

Well you certainly drank the grape koolaid. You're buying what they ( The big three) are selling..... yes society is forced to accept the digital age but it is a far cry from the necessities of life. If you want it and want to pay for it then by all means jump on the bandwagon. For many pm users and for the community regulars pm gives them the ability to manage and control their mobile services and what they pay for it....if they pay anything at all. Having throttled 4G LTE throttled to 3G speed is plenty fine for most of us who don't want faster data speeds that can gobble up our data alottments faster than necessary. There is life beyond our phone screens and its important to teach your kids or grandkids that as well.....don't forget to stop once in awhile and smell the roses or at this time of year the cherry or apple blossoms!

[Anonymous]

 @zulu53 : What does what web page show?

Other Khoros-powered forums do have a replied-to indicator. This one does not. If you read back on your one-sided conversation you'd see they are posts out of the blue talking to no one. Pretty darn meaningless.

Edit: Only you see the "Success" thing linked back to the post you replied to and only for as long as it's on the screen.

[zulu53]

@AnonymousThanks for this on the use of @.  Not what the web page shows but.............I take is that you are correct.

[Anonymous]

Could I ask an Oracle (or Retired) to extract this one-sided conversation down to the lounge. It's a meaningless self-conversation without context.

[zulu53]

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@hTideGnow wrote:

@WoozyPolarBear  yourself is a perfect example of another major user base for these Tier 3 providers: secondary phone and hence doesn't want to pay too much monthly and would like the fact that they can suspend temporary and start again anytime with no commitment. 

Also, I don't like the example you used about using  dialup modem.  I would say while some people want the latest and greatest like 1.5 Gigabit, there are also people who choose just 50Mbp package for the price, and certainly there are still many people using just 5Mbps Cable service.  Yes, the 5Mbps might not be good for 4k Netflix or not  for gamers, but those using 5Mbps only need basic internet for banking and email    So, the same goes with Mobile Data   

Different people Different needs.  And it is clear that PM and other Tier3 has quiet a lot of user who doesn't mind the slower data but enjoying the $15 or $25 plans

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There is a difference between "don't mind" and "put up with in fear of PM increasing their rates".  Read the community, I think that you find many of the latter.

[zulu53]

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@WoozyPolarBear wrote:

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@Korth wrote:

@WoozyPolarBear 

I am curious ... if you argue this "horse and carriage" data throttle so "unacceptable" then why do you stay with PM? I'm guessing that any reason you might offer will ultimately lead back to a variation of "because it costs less".

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I use PM has a burner phone number, it's not my main line. I use my PM line to sign up for any online/retailer that wants my phone number, as well as using this number for transactions I do on Kijiji/Facebook Marketplace where I don't want to give strangers my real number.

I also get it paid for each month with rewards. The day I have to start paying for it out of my own pocket is the day I will cancel the service.

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I just use VOIP.MS (a company in Quebec) for this.  They only charge $0.85 per month for the phone number and a usage charge of $0.02 per minute used.  SMS to your email are free.  Voicemail to your email are free.  You can phone from that number using your cellphone by using a VOIP app.

[zulu53]

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@WoozyPolarBear wrote:

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@gpixel wrote:

@WoozyPolarBear I think you're still a little bitter about your referral issues...

most of customers of pm are trying to look for better deals and don't care about data. I don't think the third tier will disappear simply because they will not be able to meet the demand. Koodo prepaid will never be cheaper than postpaid. this is what entices people to move to postpaid. Telus also needs to offer service to customers with bad credit

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You don't need "great" or even "good" credit to qualify for a post-paid plan. My 18 year old niece walked into Telus the day after her 18th birthday and was able to get a flagship phone on a two year term without any issue. She did not have any credit history prior to doing this.

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Hopefully once she gets married and has responsibilities she will get to understand that "affordability of housing" comes down to buying cheaper phones to go with the cheaper plans: and she will understand GDS and TDS ratio's.

[zulu53]

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@Korth wrote:

@gpixel 

I think Fido-vs-Chatr is somewhat different than the Koodo-vs-Virgin-vs-Public-vs-Lucky situation.

Because Rogers gets all profit from Fido + Chatr, it really doesn't matter much which one is doing better, Rogers HQ (and Rogers shareholders) get paid the same.

But the other Tier2 + Tier3 possibilities are shared (unevenly) between Telus and Bell so it does matter which option a customer leaves and a customer joins. They have an agreement to share their pie but they are also actual competitors who each want a bigger slice.

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They still all make more profit with more market share.  Plus there is the pressure from the customers and the Government to stop operating as a monopoly and adopt a sustainable business model.  Shaw like Telus (with their PM product) are taking a shot at this new business model.  Like all capital intensive industries of the past and present (oil companies and airlines for example) they are finding that when your product is a commodity they had better stay on top of their staff costs.  Telus et al are overstaffed and have difficulty in getting new staff, they know it, everyone knows it: hence Telus "experiment" with PM and Shaw's with the mobile/internet bundle.  All the others (Chatr etc.) are all still too employee intensive to be viable in the long term - they were created to try and maintain market share.

[zulu53]

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@LitlLdy wrote:

I’ve read through everyone’s messages and I’m one of the ones that rely on PMs low priced basic plan (as I call it) and stay due to being affordable for my basic needs for calls, text and small amount of data. I use data for emergencies like checking bank account while out or necessary things needed that can’t wait until I get home. I have internet at home that I use my iPad to do everything with not my iPhone (minus calls and text). However even though I do pay a very low price for my plan I “need” my calls to work and even more so for emergencies, along with working text now and then. The more needs we require will be the higher costs. Especially if we want faster customer service and live customer service/tech support to talk to (through phone calls), faster speed internet and so on.

I am hoping I wrote all this in words that can be understood due to I often have issues with my thoughts not coming out well or mixed up so I apologize ahead of time. 😃. My point I wanted to make was as time goes on customers like me with basic needs and even disabilities are finding it more difficult to find affordable plans for basics. I hope that we don’t lose this all together to only serve those that can and will pay higher prices so they can get more...

Someone please help me word all this better!

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Your wording is fine.  PM is the experimental "new" business model for Telus - but it will not be going away anytime soon; in fact its their model for the future.  With PM, Telus can have a lot less staff (or more customers per staff).  This makes them MORE money and helps with another one of their problems (finding new employees as old ones retire) which is becoming more and more difficult for them.  As you integrate into Canada you will find that you will (or your kids) will need faster and faster data to survive.   Telus providing this for PM customers will not change their profit on PM (its all about the staff saving) so you do not need to worry about asking for more speed.

[zulu53]

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@Luddite wrote:

@WoozyPolarBear "The times keep changing and moving forward...PM has to keep up or get out of the way."

Sorry to say, this is impossible. Telus now totally controls PM's service and plans and the result is clear to me:

a) PM has enough customers, and no need to drive a large influx while it's churn rate is extremely low

b) if VoLTE will run at 3 mbps there is nothing to drive up the offered speed

c) the bulk of PM customers now have enough rewards that no competitor is cheaper

In addition, the recent CRTC ruling is not going to drive prices down, and certainly not in PM's market segment. If anything, this ruling will support price increases for big data users using full speed LTE & 5G.

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You are not a moderator but you are an old person.  The young don't see the same picture as you do.  Example: they now need fast connectivity to operate within the Primary and Secondary school systems in Canada.  My grandkids needed it from age 6.  To maximize their learning productivity (how quickly and how much they learn) they need mobile as well as fixed connectivity.  PM to the rescue!  But with meaningful speed!!  Ever tries to watch a YouTube lesson at 3G speeds?

[zulu53]

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@WoozyPolarBear wrote:

I fully agree. PM should remain 1 generation behind the main carriers. Technically, PM does use 4G LTE, but it's artificially capped at 3 Mbps. This speed restriction is getting a bit long in the tooth though, and it's probably time PM bumps this up to something like 12-20 Mbps. There will come a time when it makes more sense to sign up with the main carrier or it's second tier carrier if PM doesn't keep pace with the industry progression.

What I expect to happen though is completely different. If anything, Telus is probably going to abandon the 3rd tier at some point down the road, and just integrate PM customers into Koodo. It's also my opinion that the main carriers like Telus, Bell, and Rogers should never have been able to own "flanker" carriers in the first place. It's intentionally confusing to give the illusion that there is competition. The CRTC should only allow mobile providers to operate under one brand name period, but offer different levels of service.

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Except that more and more of us are getting technically savvy and do not need (or want to pay for) the hand-holding Telus employees of Telus or KooDoo or pay the over the top loan rates for the handsets.  PM is the future business model for 80% of the population in the next 10 years.  Any of three + half that don't understand that will fail.  My grandkids (aged 10 to 3) are already there (with Shaw not PM): with parental blocks in place of course.  Since PM make most of their money by having very few employees they do not need to cut/throttle data rates.

[zulu53]

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@LurganIeUk wrote:

Recently I posted 2 full articles that show  CRTCs expectations. It was rudely merged  to another posting in the lounge. My post and comments were fully deleted twice. So am currently pi$$ed off. 

Here is part of it.  And does NOT say what kind of data service. So no doubt it won’t be the best.

The CRTC expects SaskTel, Bell, Telus and Rogers to offer and promote, on their premium brands, low-cost plans that will have the following attributes:

• Maximum $35/month
• Unlimited Canada-wide incoming/outgoing calls and text messages
• Ability to send/receive multimedia messages
• Minimum 3 GB of data
• Bring your own device

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right.  To do this they will have to provide infrastructure only (a sim card connected to communications) without ANY hand-holding.  Hence PM.  As the average Joe/Jane gets to be taught how to operate a cellphone and sim card at kindergarten this model will work for 80% of the population.  The other 20% can get the brand new iphones annually and the automatice transfer of app/data by Telus and the support when they drop the phone in the pool/toilet.   They have the money and its theirs to spend as they wish (on Telus, Rogers, Bell depending on who treats them better).   My point is that they do not and should not drop the communications speed since this has very little impact on their infrastructure.  It did have an impact several years ago but not now that they do fiber to the cellular nodes.

[zulu53]

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@HALIMACS wrote:

@zulu53 

It wouldn't surprise me if with the big three that have three tiers of service,  they will taylor each of the generations toward the successive higher level tiers.

Telus 5G

KOODO 4G

PM 3G

The same will likely hold true for Bell and Rogers- just guessing.

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Its not about the speed of the service - its about the customer hand holding involved.  That's is where Telus make their money with PM.  Its like Business Class vs Economy.  Both get to the destination with the same duration and speed.   But the hand-holding along the way - well you have to pay for that.  Its strange but everyone using this "Community" website seem not to know why they are doing it.  For clarification its for Telus to avoid having to provide staff to get customers to use the service.

[zulu53]

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@Triguy wrote:

5G is still being rolled out to most major cities.  It is difficult to say when PM will change to 4G as they are a third tier provider.  They uses Telus and Bell towers which are 4G but throttle the speed to 3G.

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They are not third tier.  They are a completely different business model based on communications infrastructure as a commodity - so with no hand-holding customer service (even Walmart are quite happy to just sign you up and give you the sim until esim becomes ubiquitous.  You put in the sim and go from there).  Go online and fix up your own plan.  There are no Telus employees (subcontracted or not) involved - keeping their costs way down).  As the average Joe/Jane learns this out of kindergarten the PM model will be completely suitable for 80% of the population.  The rich 20% will still want to pay for the hand-holding customer service provided now with Telus.  Koodoo will drop away.  My point - there is no economic incentive for Telus to restrict PM to 3G. 

[zulu53]

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@popping wrote:

It will take time before PM will get the full LTE speed as 5G is not fully deployed.  Currently, we are getting LTE capped at 3Mbps or full 3G speed.

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Yes, but that is the status a year or so ago.  4GLTE has been fully deployed and expanded (with fiber) at all nodes; there is therefore no technical need to "throttle" some users to manage the load on the nodes.  All the heavy users are being, and have been, transitioned to 5G nodes, along with their sim cards or esims (new devices).  My point: there is no technical or financial reason for Telus to throttle.  There was but now there is not.

[zulu53]

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@darlicious wrote:

@zulu53 

Having full speed 4G LTE at public mobile isnt going to happen anytime soon. This is the distinguishing factor between the three tiers that telus operates. Once 3G starts to get fully decommissioned and telus offers mostly 5G to its customers we may see pm drop throttled 4G LTE service.

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As I point out.  With the advent of 5G the "distinguishing features" as you call it should logically change.  Also remember that the defining feature (not just distinguishing feature) of PM vs Telus is the lack of hand-holding staff (no stores, no phone support, no phone handset support, only volunteer support).  That is a huge cost and by far the major reason PM is "less expensive" than Telus.  The saving they make by leveraging their 3G network so as to not overload their 4GLTE and 5G networks is small potatoes: particularly now that they have "built out" 4GLTE infrastructure.

edited by computergeek541: added the quote for the message being replied to

[hTideGnow]

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@darlicious , so the cell phone is pretty mach a pacemaker to those ppl, and if the mobile connection die, the person die, too ?  🤣😂😁

[darlicious]

There are two types of cell phone users in the world.....thisr who use their cell phone for convenience when they are away from home to make or take a call, send a quick text, kill a little time on a bus or waiting line by browsing the internet or catching up on their emails as they go about their daily life. They don't need the latest, greatest, fastest.....they just need enough to service their needs.

Then there are those who go about their day glued to their phone. They are on it when they take a walk, have a meal, go to the beach or a park and sadly for some they can't even leave it alone when they drive! They are playing video games, watching tiktok, scrolling thru instagram and watching video clips or entire HD movies all the while life passes them by......these are the users that need 5G speeds and large data buckets because their whole life is tied to their phone.

Public mobile is not designed for or marketed to the latter and they never will be....

[LurganIeUk]

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@WoozyPolarBear wrote:

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@Korth wrote:

@WoozyPolarBear 

I am curious ... if you argue this "horse and carriage" data throttle so "unacceptable" then why do you stay with PM? I'm guessing that any reason you might offer will ultimately lead back to a variation of "because it costs less".

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I use PM has a burner phone number, it's not my main line. I use my PM line to sign up for any online/retailer that wants my phone number, as well as using this number for transactions I do on Kijiji/Facebook Marketplace where I don't want to give strangers my real number.

I also get it paid for each month with rewards. The day I have to start paying for it out of my own pocket is the day I will cancel the service.

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I never give my cell number out to any one other than friends or family. And all "sign up" stuff gets an email address (that does NOT have my name in it) that all the  "junk" information comes to, that may have benefits, along with my CL sales and MarketPlace sales. And if push comes to shove I give out a Fongo number that forwards to my PM number. And I just say call me...but don't text.  And there is no way I would "pay"  for or set up a special  phone number for that kind of thing. And if you do accidentally give out your mobile number, if you ever have a call back that you don't want.....block it. 

I like my PM service with my 250mb of Data. 

[Korth]

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@WoozyPolarBear wrote:

Realistically, 250 Mbps should be the absolute bare minimum data speed needed to be a functional part of the digital society. Less than that, and you will be disadvantaged.

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Why?

So you can burn through a paltry few GB of cellular data in mere minutes then have nothing left for the rest of the month? So you can stream 8K/4320p60 on a puny cellphone display?

Anyone can get broadband wired, cable, or optic at gigabit or multi-gigabit speeds and terabyte limits. And anyone can set up wifi hardware if they really must interface that data through their smartphone. I'm of the opinion that those who insist on paying far more to get far less (because it's gotta be cellular) are the ones who are disadvantaged.

https://www.tigermobiles.com/faq/mobile-download-speed-guide/

[hTideGnow]

@WoozyPolarBear   Sir, we all want the best if they are all free, unfortunately we have many bills to pay.

[WoozyPolarBear]

It's fine if people don't want those speeds, but they then have no right to complain when they get left behind in society, especially moving forward with the IoT becoming more and more prevalent. 

Realistically, 250 Mbps should be the absolute bare minimum data speed needed to be a functional part of the digital society. Less than that, and you will be disadvantaged.

[hTideGnow]

@WoozyPolarBear  yourself is a perfect example of another major user base for these Tier 3 providers: secondary phone and hence doesn't want to pay too much monthly and would like the fact that they can suspend temporary and start again anytime with no commitment. 

Also, I don't like the example you used about using  dialup modem.  I would say while some people want the latest and greatest like 1.5 Gigabit, there are also people who choose just 50Mbp package for the price, and certainly there are still many people using just 5Mbps Cable service.  Yes, the 5Mbps might not be good for 4k Netflix or not  for gamers, but those using 5Mbps only need basic internet for banking and email    So, the same goes with Mobile Data   

Different people Different needs.  And it is clear that PM and other Tier3 has quiet a lot of user who doesn't mind the slower data but enjoying the $15 or $25 plans

[WoozyPolarBear]

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@Korth wrote:

@WoozyPolarBear 

I am curious ... if you argue this "horse and carriage" data throttle so "unacceptable" then why do you stay with PM? I'm guessing that any reason you might offer will ultimately lead back to a variation of "because it costs less".

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I use PM has a burner phone number, it's not my main line. I use my PM line to sign up for any online/retailer that wants my phone number, as well as using this number for transactions I do on Kijiji/Facebook Marketplace where I don't want to give strangers my real number.

I also get it paid for each month with rewards. The day I have to start paying for it out of my own pocket is the day I will cancel the service.

[WoozyPolarBear]

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@gpixel wrote:

@WoozyPolarBear I think you're still a little bitter about your referral issues...

most of customers of pm are trying to look for better deals and don't care about data. I don't think the third tier will disappear simply because they will not be able to meet the demand. Koodo prepaid will never be cheaper than postpaid. this is what entices people to move to postpaid. Telus also needs to offer service to customers with bad credit

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You don't need "great" or even "good" credit to qualify for a post-paid plan. My 18 year old niece walked into Telus the day after her 18th birthday and was able to get a flagship phone on a two year term without any issue. She did not have any credit history prior to doing this.

[Korth]

@gpixel 

I think Fido-vs-Chatr is somewhat different than the Koodo-vs-Virgin-vs-Public-vs-Lucky situation.

Because Rogers gets all profit from Fido + Chatr, it really doesn't matter much which one is doing better, Rogers HQ (and Rogers shareholders) get paid the same.

But the other Tier2 + Tier3 possibilities are shared (unevenly) between Telus and Bell so it does matter which option a customer leaves and a customer joins. They have an agreement to share their pie but they are also actual competitors who each want a bigger slice.

[gpixel]

unless the big 3 have a really good plan on how to replace the third tier. I don't see them leaving.. especially chatr, I consider them more of a seperate entity to Rogers. they have the closest service to a good provider. if you look at Fido's prepaid, that's how prepaid should be priced. they don't even want to mess around with chatr customers. unlike Telus and bell

[hTideGnow]

Yes, that is exactly my points.  I guess PM as well as other Tier3 providers has their specific target group of users.  From what I see, the market share is still significant.  We have older age group who needs phone more than data and data just more for emergency needs.  We have people with bad credit who can't get post-paid plans.  We have new immigrants who wants to save a bit more until to start up. 

I don't argue that these groups of users might be short term with not much loyalty as compare with other post-paid plans, partly because there is no contract and they can leave anytime..  They might soon find they need data more and decide to jump ships.  Some might run into a service situation and got upset with the lack of "live support" and decide to go.   However, I still think these group is still has a significant number that can keep alive these three Tier3 providers--at least for the next 5 years.