Rant re: a not-unlocked unlocked cell phone

[jtgibson]

I wrote up this question for the CCTS after being rather miffed by Rogers flatly refusing to unlock a phone I had purchased from a third party, and I like it enough that I thought I'd share.  There's no question here, or at least, not one for any non-regulatory body... just me venting spleen at Rogers for being, well, Rogers. 😉  (My previous lowest-cost-prepaid-plan provider was Virgin Mobile/Bell, which I jumped ship from when they unilaterally started charging monthly activation fees, inflated my per-minute fee by a third, and increased the annual prepaid cost to a minimum of $150.  I don't get cheaper than that here, but at least I feel more confident that I'm getting exactly what I'm paying for. =))

"Is it possible to require a service provider to unlock a phone that is locked to their network, non-blacklisted, and never activated by anyone else, if I am not a customer of that service provider?

I currently have a cell phone I purchased on the Best Buy Marketplace from (what I noticed far too late) a numbered company, 9723501 Canada Limited (dba ATDMKT).  The product was described as an "LG K4 2017 M151 8GB Black Unlocked Android Smartphone", and was shipped and delivered without direct fraud, but is in fact network-locked to the Rogers Network, and will not activate on my own network (which is based on the Telus network).

* My service provider (Public Mobile) claims they are unable to unlock anything except the SIM card itself.

* The phone manufacturer (LG) has asserted that this is not caused by the phone itself -- they were helpful enough to identify that the phone's IMEI is currently registered to the Rogers network.
* Rogers technical support has refused to unlock this cell phone as I am not (and never was) a Rogers Wireless customer.

As I understand it, the seller is the one who is required by law to unlock the device or provide unlocking instructions.  I am attempting to contact the seller.

However, I am curious as to why national service providers are not required to unlock phones upon request from a current lawful owner of a device, rather than "the customer".  It seems that they are fulfilling the letter but not the spirit of the law if they refuse to unlock devices with one degree of separation from the original purchaser.  If the seller refuses contact or forces me to take legal action on principle, it seems even more suspect that I may have to rely on a third-party unlocking service and pay for a service that is mandated free."

I do want to thank both Public Mobile's Moderator_Team and LG Canada for making this frustrating time a little less frustrating. 😉

[LurganIeUk]

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@Korth wrote:

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@darlicious wrote:

@LurganIeUk 

 I am wondering if any one else is in a pinch, I would try to find a friend with a Rogers contract and have them put their Sim in the iPhone and then go onto their account and unlock it. 

I was thinking exactly that myself........

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You can try one of the unaffiliated retailers like London Drugs or Walmart. Catch the guy behind the counter when he's bored, ask nicely, buy a payment voucher or something from him. He's probably got every kind of SIM card available for testing/activation purposes. He's probably happy to help fix the phone if it means he gets something to do and some kind of sale.

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That’s doubtful. You can test with a SIM to a certain point even if it is not active. The SIM would have to be activated AND the bored guy would have to have online access to the account. 

[Korth]

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@darlicious wrote:

@LurganIeUk 

 I am wondering if any one else is in a pinch, I would try to find a friend with a Rogers contract and have them put their Sim in the iPhone and then go onto their account and unlock it. 

I was thinking exactly that myself........

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You can try one of the unaffiliated retailers like London Drugs or Walmart. Catch the guy behind the counter when he's bored, ask nicely, buy a payment voucher or something from him. He's probably got every kind of SIM card available for testing/activation purposes. He's probably happy to help fix the phone if it means he gets something to do and some kind of sale.

[darlicious]

@LurganIeUk 

 I am wondering if any one else is in a pinch, I would try to find a friend with a Rogers contract and have them put their Sim in the iPhone and then go onto their account and unlock it. 

I was thinking exactly that myself........

[LurganIeUk]

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@GR wrote:

@LurganIeUk  it was unlocked by imei.info for 14$ us.  It took 2 days! 

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I learn something new here every day. I thought that ONLY  the selling carrier could do. I do remember that one iPhone I bought, the person went into their account and unlocked it for me before I arrived. Nice lady! Likely a Rogers Phone. I am wondering if any one else is in a pinch, I would try to find a friend with a Rogers contract and have them put their Sim in the iPhone and then go onto their account and unlock it. I do recall on my Telus prepaid account when I switched the Sim from an android to my first iPhone the imei number and description of phone showed on my account immediately. One iPhone even showed it was an Apple replacement phone! It’s amazing what information is passed to the telco just by inserting an activated SIM card. 

Well done...great perseverance!

[darlicious]

@GR 

Im not sure if you or the person who sold you the phone would be the complaintant in a CCTS   investigation but the WCC legislation clearly states no Canadian mobile provider is to sell locked phone to consumers. All phones are to sold unlocked .....period. Selling a locked phone is a clear violation of the code. Rogers/Fido's refusal to unlock phones is based on the concept that if all phones supposedly are unlocked as of December 2017 putting time limitations on former customers getting their devices unlocked (April 2020>April 2019/April 2021>April 2020) supposedly solves the problem for any older device needing unlocking by a time based default if Rogers/Fido adheres to the law.

However if you were not a Rogers or Fido customer at the time of the announcement theres is no guarantee that you are aware of this change. And obviously this is an issue if Rogers/Fido continue to carrier lock their phones purposely or by default with the insertion of their sim cards. This is a breach that unless consumers report and follow thru with the complaint process with the CCTS  to have the provider formally punished and/or fined there is no way for the general public to be made aware of these unscrupulous business practices and make informed choices.

Its important to note that while overall complaints to the CCTS/CRTC fell significantly in 2019/2020 indicating that changes to the WCC have been effective in mitigating MSP customer issues covered under the CCTS mandate complaints and formal charges against Rogers/ Fido were up by 5% and 28% respectively. 

[GR]

@LurganIeUk  it was unlocked by imei.info for 14$ us.  It took 2 days! 

[LurganIeUk]

@GR 

Interesting. This is the second recent post about Rogers and their nastiness in regards to locked phones. And furthermore that phone was on the market far after the mandatory “must be unlocked” mandate. What gives? Also out of curiosity, who unlocked it? Bad press equals less customers for Rogers. 

[GR]

Last weekend I bought a brand new iPhone xr for my daughters Christmas gift  from someone on Facebook,  plastics were still on it and you could tell never been used.  I put my Sim card in it and it said not supported so I messaged the guy and he said he was with Rogers and he had only put his Sim card in it but not used it. I asked him to call Rogers to unlock it so he did and Rogers said since 2017 no phones are locked. So I called Rogers and they said since I'm not a customer they won't unlock it for me. So then I called Apple to see what they can do because I know Samsung can unlock a phone for anyone,  they said its up to Rogers to unlock it.   So I went online and found a site called emei.info and paid 5$ for a report on the phone and it says locked to Rogers and the phone is 5 days old and still has Apple care warranty till halloween next year so the phone is new!   Then I purchased the unlock service for 20$ and it took 2 days and now the phone works on public mobile!  I just found it weird that for 3 years they're not allowed to lock phones and everywhere you read it says unlock for free  but still Rogers would not do anything because I wasn't a customer and hadn't been in the past year. But I'm glad I got it all sorted! 

[darlicious]

@jtgibson 

Well that worked out in a round about way very well and a lesson for all to be learned from. Your monile data is working? Or wifi? Send a MMS is the easiest test to see if your mobile data is working correctly.

[jtgibson]

Heh, so, fun update.

I paid Canada Unlocking for the unlock process, who guarantee that the unlocking process will work with a 100% refund.  The US$19.84 option did not work -- they suggested that I use the US$29.99 option instead.  Seemed a little sketchy, but they almost certainly know better than I do, so sure.  I asked if the cheaper Rogers unlock codes option would suffice, and got no reply within 30 minutes.  I assumed "no" (edit: they replied about an hour later and said that the Rogers option probably would work if the screen is asking for an unlock code -- which it was).  I then asked if I could get a PayPal link to pay the difference of the original price, or get a full refund of the original order so that I could pay for the new order, and got no reply within 30 more minutes (edit: they responded almost immediately after the previous one and issued a refund).

The original seller finally responded to me while I was waiting for Canada Unlocking, and they were willing, able, and did run the unlock on their end, painlessly and effortlessly within just a couple minutes.

According to Canada Unlocking's terms of service, if it's unlocked by anyone else, no refund.  I saw those terms and agreed to them, so I paid them $20 for no successful unlock, and got an unlock from the original seller again.  The seller has indeed proven that I can have faith in humanity. 😉

Joie de vivre!

[edit] Canada Unlocking just got back to me and has issued the refund.  I feel a tiny smidgeon guilty now.  Fun update to a fun update!

[edit 2] @gpixel Data seems to be working great on the LG phone, at least in my home (which has a fairly low quality signal).

[darlicious]

@jtgibson 

Its unfortunate you were unaware of the announcement this spring that Rogers/Fido were stopping unlocking of their devices for non customers and former customers beyond 12 months. It doesnt surprise me coming from the most deceptive of mobile providers in Canada. When it comes to those two its buyer beware be very aware!

https://mobilesyrup.com/2020/04/21/rogers-fido-devices-unlocking-rules/

[gpixel]

@jtgibson but even that phone (a pure 3G phone) is a bit spotty on the data connection.

at&t is going to discontinue HSPA in 2022. there's a good chance Canadian telecoms will follow soon after

[LurganIeUk]

I think you have a reason. 

Mislead

And it cost you

Nevertheless it could be a painlessly easy request and refund. 

[jtgibson]

If I were to get after Best Buy, it'd probably just be to warn them of a slightly-shady-ish seller on there, so that the seller would be warned formally or removed.  But my faith in humanity is holding out for the possibility that it was just a purely legitimate mistake by the seller; especially during COVID, I don't want to dink around with someone's livelihood unless there's a really good reason.

[LurganIeUk]

Also it looks like the ruling changed in favour of the carrier. 

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/contact/phone/q19.htm

[LurganIeUk]

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@jtgibson wrote:

It's US$19.84, a whopping 15 cents cheaper than the next cheapest option I could find at US$19.99.

As for how well it works, I'll let you know once I've actually gotten it done.  I'm still on the burner phone for the moment since I'm on-call, but even that phone (a pure 3G phone) is a bit spotty on the data connection.

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Will you go after Best Buy?

[jtgibson]

It's US$19.84, a whopping 15 cents cheaper than the next cheapest option I could find at US$19.99.

As for how well it works, I'll let you know once I've actually gotten it done.  I'm still on the burner phone for the moment since I'm on-call, but even that phone (a pure 3G phone) is a bit spotty on the data connection.

[gpixel]

@jtgibson how much did you end up paying?

*that's not too bad. are all your services working, including data? lg phones usually have issues connecting to mobile data on public mobile

[LurganIeUk]

Well that is Bell customer service for you!!! But I have done successfully with Bell. I think there are some that I did 2 tries on because some of the agents don't know what to do...so they just refuse you. It does not make sense to refuse as less and less phones out there will be locked at time of sale and the requests should lessen. 

If any one wants me to try...let me know by PM.  But be sure of the carrier it is locked to. 

[jtgibson]

@gpixelYeah, Canada Unlocking was the legitimate unlocker I settled on, comparing against numerous others who charge upwards of 20-40 USD.  Getting shafted with a locked phone made me pretty wary against the eBay ones. 😃

[JK8]

@LurganIeUk 

In my case with Bell I tried the live chat several times and calling their toll free number to ask them to unlock the phone. Each time they refused unless I was the original owner.

[LurganIeUk]

Also see here. https://www.lg.com/ca_en/unlockcode

[Korth]

You can purchase unlock codes on ebay, as cheap as they get, but never free.

I always recommend people get their devices unlocked immediately, even if they're perfectly happy with their carrier and have no plans to ever go elsewhere. Do it while it's free, before some change in circumstances or rules takes the freedom away.

Because the unlocked phone might be useful in a couple years when suddenly your carrier sucks or some other carrier offers an impossibly perfect deal.

And because you can always give or sell the unlocked phone to someone else. It has much less usefulness or resale value if it's forever married with to one carrier. Imagine trying to give/sell someone a car which can only be refueled by the one fuel provider which can open the gas tank.

[LurganIeUk]

I have purchased numerous second hand iPhones. What I do is ask for the IMEI and what carrier it was on and if it was locked or not. There is a website to confirm by the IMEI number for iPhones only. I then do a chat with the original carrier that sold the phone and have it unlocked. I have never ever had a refusal. If they ask why....I say my brother gave me the phone and I want to use it for travel in USA or Europe. I never call....only do the online chat....try it please and let me know.

Also a long time ago I unlocked a non iPhone on eBay for $5. It worked!!!

[JK8]

@jtgibson 

Here is a thread of my experience buying a phone from a buy and sell site.

https://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Phones-Hardware/Moved-sim-cards-to-iphone-11-and-it-i...

[gpixel · Accepted solution]

@jtgibson there are options to get unlock codes for any device, but I think you have to pay. 

https://canadaunlocking.com/

[jtgibson]

While much of what Helpershelper said is quite valid, I will just note that a Rogers-network-locked phone from a third-party vendor will not work with Public Mobile unless there was an account involved somewhere or they were Rogers customers.  I have two phones on my desk, a cheap-ish unlocked phone I picked up while waiting for this one to arrive, and the locked phone -- the SIM only works in the cheap one.

[Psygineer]

I know Bell operates the same. I was given an old phone by a coworker, Bell refused to unlock it for me, but Bell happily unlocked it for them.

[jtgibson]

Some more news, and it doesn't seem like good news.  https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2019/2019-169.htm -- Apparently this same issue was brought up with the CRTC and they felt as though it should always be interpreted only for current customers, in spite of the unfair power dynamic.  Logically, it simply created a loophole where carriers dumped as many pre-2018 network-locked cellphones to third-party vendors as they could in order to thumb their noses at anyone unlucky enough to buy one.  I am displeased. 😉

[Helpershelper]

@jtgibson 

For your first question: if you buy a phone from anywhere and it’s locked then only the carrier can unlock it because they set the lock for it. This isn’t the first iPhone in 2009, if you pay off your device then it’s yours, the carrier doesn’t care anymore.

Now being network locked to Rogers doesn’t mean you can’t use it because their coverage is great. The phone itself wouldn’t be locked unless it was reported stolen which isn’t the case.

Technically what you need to unlock:

    IMEI of your device (can usually be found on the box or on a sticker on the device or battery or you can just dial *#06# into the dialer)

    Your phone number, account number and account name

    Security for the account (password, etc.)

Now when you visit a public mobile location (https://www.publicmobile.ca/en/on/store-locator) they will be able to port over your number even if the phones locked. I had a $230 balance on my phone because I was on a $10 tab and I was able to port into PM. The carrier would just bill you your final bill.

I would be careful with buying phones the way you did because unless you read the fine print you never know who’s selling you the actual phone.