01-07-2017 09:39 PM - edited 08-05-2022 07:05 PM
Hi everyone, I have noticed that there is some misunderstanding about the network sharing between Bell and Telus. Hopefully this will help with some of the confusion. I've worked as a network engineer for operators and vendors and this is an area I am familiar with.
To begin with, let's start with a simple LTE network diagram:
Bell and Telus only share the RAN across Canada. They share 3G and LTE RANs. In some cities (Vancouver), Telus owns the RAN, and Bell users are allowed to use it. In other cities (Toronto), it's the other way around. This allows Bell and Telus to spend less money building out a network, while both benefiting from it. In a city like Toronto, there are only 3 RAN operators: Rogers, Bell, Shaw (Freedom Mobile/Wind). Any other company that sells service is really using the RAN of those 3 companies.
Bell and Telus have independent EPC and IMS networks (IMS is used for VoLTE among other things). The core network is what authenticates user SIM cards, tracks usage and billing, completes calls, delivers text messages, and connects data sessions to the internet. All Bell and Telus eNodeBs in Canada are connected to both Bell and Telus cores.
To make a phone call, or send/receive text, or use data, the whole network must be functional. The RAN cannot deliver any services on its own, and the core cannot directly talk to a phone. So if any of these parts go down, the user will not have service.
If there is ever an outage that only affects Telus subscribers, it's probably due to the core. If there is an outage that affect Bell and Telus subscribers simultaneously, it's probably due to the RAN.
Coverage is 100% due to eNodeB. Therefore, if you have good coverage with Bell or Virigin Mobile, you will have identical coverage with Telus, Koodo, or PM. It can be possible for coverage to be different if Bell and Telus didn't share all bands. However, they currently share all bands except Band 30 (2.3 GHz, which is high frequency and doesn't impact coverage). Band 30 is only for Telus at the moment.
UPDATE
As a result of Bell's 2017 acquisition of MTS, the situation in Manitoba is complicated. In Winnipeg and Brandon, Telus operates a new independent RAN, separate from the shared Bell/Rogers RAN. Coverage between Bell and Telus is different in these markets as a result.
/UPDATE
For a good map of NodeB (3G) and eNodeB (LTE) locations, refer to this link:
https://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html
After clicking on a site, refer to BW (bandwidth), this may give a clue to the technology being used.
Here is a specific example of how it works in Quebec City:
If you have any questions, I'll do my best to help answer them!
Update: additional LTE topics explained here:
http://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Discussions/LTE-network-fundamentals/td-p/130581
Update 2: key information from this article was used in a 2020 post by Inside Towers, without crediting the original article here.
06-19-2017 09:55 PM
Thanks Luddite!
What I was looking for is any confirmation on if Public Mobile has access to the 2600MHz band if using a Bell Tower?
I see Telus has coverage in my city, but I don't know what part of their map represents the 2600MHz LTE band. It may be that they are receiving full access through another LTE band from Bell. The public mobile map provides no distinction between the frequencies.
The reason I ask this rather odd question is because I saw mentioned in posts that Telus does not operate on 2600MHz for Bell towers (in a few cases, that information may be dated now).
TL;DR - There are Bell towers operating on 2600MHz near my house. Is there any reason that my 'future' phone, that supports FDD-LTE B1/B3/B5/B7/B8, will not connect to this?
06-19-2017 09:14 PM - edited 06-19-2017 09:15 PM
@McBryen Check this wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telus_Mobility#LTE
Also, have look at the coverage maps: https://publicmobile.ca/en/on/coverage and http://www.telus.com/en/on/mobility/network/coverage-map.jsp
As a general rule, Bell & Telus share towers where they each lack coverage. We like to refer to them as Belus towers.
06-19-2017 09:01 PM - last edited on 06-19-2017 09:15 PM by Luddite
Hey @sheytoon,
I just want to confirm before purchasing a Xiaomi Rednote 4... This phone has access to 2600MHZ and I only have Bell towers in my city. I saw someone mention in another thread that PM may not have access to this frequency on Bell Towers. Is this hogwash?
Thanks!
05-05-2017 09:26 AM
05-04-2017 10:15 PM
A very last question for Sheytoon !!!
It's about VIRGIN MOBILE.
My son has his phone with Virgin. With the app "Signal info", the app said that the network connected is : Virgin. If the phone receive the signal 302-610, why it doesn't say : Bell ???
Is it because it's à Virgin sim card ??? When it connect to the core network is it the same mecanic if it was à Bell ??? Thank you for the answer
04-24-2017 08:42 AM
04-24-2017 03:42 AM
04-19-2017 06:19 PM
04-19-2017 04:58 PM
A big big thank you, sheytoon. You're the master !!!
04-19-2017 01:04 PM
I am the only one cant understand? lol
04-19-2017 10:56 AM - edited 10-08-2017 09:02 PM
@echf
Believe it or not, 5G (NR, or "New Radio") is not going to replace LTE, at least not for a very long time. LTE is already extremely efficient and doing a good job meeting traffic growth demand. Another important point to consider is that 5G specifications are only being finalized now, and commercial deployments won't be seen until 2020 or so.
From what I've seen so far, 5G spectrum will be very high frequency (3.5 GHz, 28 GHz, mmWave etc.) and have extremely large bandwidth (100+ MHz for one channel). Massive MIMO will be utilized as well (64T64R radios on the base station). This increases capacity tremendously, but the high frequency reduces coverage as I have explained before. For basic coverage, we will be living with LTE for a long time. For super fast speeds, 5G will overlap with existing LTE areas, but a lot more 5G sites will be needed as you have stated.
I'm sure Bell and Telus's partnership would help them against Rogers if they chose to continue with their arrangement.
Similar to LTE-A, which was a collection of new features, LTE-A Pro also refers to a collection of features (3GPP Release 13 or newer). The main focus is providing a smooth upgrade path to 5G, along with smart device connectivity (NB-IoT and eMTC). Yes, it's coming to Canada soon, all the operators are testing and conducting trials to see how well these features work in real life.
Good overview from Qualcomm here:
https://www.qualcomm.com/invention/technologies/lte/advanced-pro
04-19-2017 10:44 AM - edited 04-19-2017 02:13 PM
04-19-2017 08:00 AM
Thank you very much, sheytoon for your explication ! Only my last question is not clear : why you can see "1" single tower with both Bell and Telus in the same tower ??? (Per ex, in Laurier Station,QC, the tower has Telus 850,1900,2100 AND Bell 1900. Why not having only one carrier ??? Thanks a lot for the answer Bill
04-19-2017 12:58 AM - edited 04-19-2017 01:01 AM
As 5G is coming, I heard carrieris would need more cell tower to fully cover a area. Would this be a disadvantage for Rogers/Fido? Since they build their own tower rather then sharing. @sheytoon
Is LTE Advanced Pro coming to Canada soon?
04-18-2017 10:27 PM - edited 02-05-2021 10:25 PM
In Quebec City, Telus is the RAN owner. Bell's sites are very old CDMA (2G network), which is incompatible with the modern 3G and LTE networks. Bell's CDMA network is to be decommissioned and shut down in the next year or two. There may be a handful of indoor 3G / LTE sites owned by Bell, and all of them would be shared with Telus users.
The arrangement that Bell and Telus have is technically known as Multiple Operator Core Network (MOCN). This means the Telus eNodeB (LTE tower) in Quebec City will broadcast/identify itself as Telus and Bell. Your phone has no idea who operates the site. It just sees the Bell (302-610) and Telus (302-220) network codes being broadcast, and since the Bell code matches the home network programmed in your SIM card, it tries to connect. The tower then connects you to the Bell core network for authentication. Once you're authenticated, you will receive service as allowed on your profile (phone calls, SMS, data, etc). If your phone scans all networks and doesn't find your home network, it will attempt to roam on a visited network. This can be domestic roaming (on Rogers for example), or international.
To answer your question, you will always attach to the strongest signal, regardless of who owns the site. If you move to an area where a Bell tower has a stronger signal, your phone will handover to that one. Again, your phone sees both Bell and Telus being broadcast, so it won't know or care who owns the site.
For question 2, the main advantage for this arrangement is cost savings for Bell and Telus. Generally speaking, Telus builds sites in BC, AB, Windsor, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Gaspé. Bell builds the rest, except SK. They share all sites with each other's subscribers. In Saskatchewan, Sasktel owns the RAN, and they share it 3-way with Bell and Telus subscribers. Manitoba is a bit different and they don't share in Winnipeg and Brandon.
I have included links to all of my detailed posts here. Have a look for more info:
http://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Discussions/LTE-network-fundamentals/td-p/130581
Thanks @NDesai for tagging me.
04-18-2017 09:03 PM
@Bill1 I have moved your topic into this existing topic. @sheytoon will gladly answer your questions when he sees it.
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04-18-2017 08:35 PM
If you have 1 or 2 links to give to me on the subject, thanks
04-18-2017 08:20 PM
Hello sheytoon. I think you're the man who have the answers for my 2 questions.
First, I have a LTE phone with ***** BELL *****
If you go to Québec City, you have a lot of Telus towers and a lot of Bell towers all mixed up in the City. My question is : how the phone works ??? 1- Does my phone search the strongest LTE signal no matter if it's a Telus or Bell tower. OR 2- I have a ***Bell*** phone and it will ALWAYS search in priority a Bell towers (per ex, you have a Bell signal at 75% and a Telus signal at 95%, it will go on his Bell towers ???)
My second question : (maybe the first will answer the second) : why you will have a single tower and the both carriers Bell and Telus with the same frequencies are in the same tower ???
I'm searching the answer for a long time. Thank you very much for the answer Bill
02-27-2017 06:12 PM - edited 02-27-2017 09:59 PM
180 Mbps is achievable with B66 + B4 CA (25 MHz), but not in Vancouver. It's only possible in markets where they have an extra 10 MHz of B4 available for LTE. They've also listed 4x4 MIMO, so it's not clear which path they are taking to achieve 180 Mbps. My guess is that no phones support 4x4 MIMO with B66 today, so even though network is capable of high speeds, realistic peak speed is 110 Mbps with no CA, or 182 Mbps with 2-CA.
Not sure why Rogers is slower, but depending on the testing methodology, Rogers might be faster or slower than Bell and Telus. It's really hard to know the reason without seeing the test data.
02-27-2017 04:14 PM
02-27-2017 12:32 PM - edited 02-27-2017 02:43 PM
That's a great question, but your info about Vancouver is not entirely accurate.
Freedom only has 15 MHz of paired spectrum in Vancouver for B66. The confusion is how people refer to it. Industry Canada gives them 15 MHz for downlink and another 15 MHz for uplink. This is why it's paired (15 + 15), but phones will just report it as 15 MHz, not 30 MHz. Most engineers will also refer to it as a 15 MHz channel. Also, CA is only for downlink at the moment, so only the downlink part is used in CA calculations. Technically they have 30 MHz total for B66, but then technically, Rogers has 80 MHz for their B4 and B7 (20 + 20 for each band).
02-27-2017 07:12 AM
02-15-2017 03:47 PM
02-14-2017 01:14 PM
@sheytoon wrote:Here are the RAN sharing scenarios across Canada:
- BC, Alberta: Mostly Telus RAN, shared with Bell. Some areas like northern BC are Bell RAN, shared with Telus.
- Saskatchewan: Sasktel RAN, shared with Bell and Telus.
- Manitoba: Telus RAN, shared with Bell.
- Manitoba: MTS and Rogers RANs, shared with each other.
- Ontario: Mostly Bell and some Telus RAN, shared with each other. Windsor and Ottawa are Telus, the rest is Bell.
- Quebec: Bell and Telus RANs, shared with each other. Gatineau, Montreal, Quebec City and Gaspé region are Telus, the rest is Bell.
- Quebec (including Ottawa): Rogers and Videotron RANs (LTE only), shared with each other.
- New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, Newfoundland & Labrador: Bell RAN, shared with Telus.
- Territories: Bell RAN, shared with Telus.
This info is all publicly available by looking at site maps and company press releases. Site map here: https://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html
I believe TELUS serves some of Labrador near the Quebec border, could be wrong.
02-13-2017 09:36 AM
02-13-2017 05:38 AM
Do you know if the global version S7/S7 Edge gets access to Tri-band CA or do you need the Canadian Variant (like SM-G935W8 or SM-G930W8)?
02-13-2017 05:29 AM - edited 02-27-2017 09:53 PM
@edward203203
For tri-band CA (3-CA) on Bell and Telus, currently I am aware of HTC 10 and the following Samsung phones:
S7, S7 Edge, S6 Edge Plus, Note 5.
For 2-CA, there's too many phones to list.
02-13-2017 05:02 AM
@edward203203Zen phone is one of few that support Roberlous and others.
02-13-2017 04:51 AM
So which phones or specific models currently support the tri-band carrier aggregation by Bell/Telus?
Cause it seems to me that my LG G Flex 2 and Huawei Mate 8 do not support carrier aggregation, at least not from the current Bell/Telus setup.
01-16-2017 08:31 PM - edited 12-28-2020 06:46 PM
Here are the RAN sharing scenarios across Canada:
This info is all publicly available by looking at site maps and company press releases. Site map here: https://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html