Why is Canada so expensive for cell service?

[bluejaywpg]

I hate that I visited Iceland, New Zealand, & Australia in the last 2 years & for $30-35 CAD I got 5 GB of 4G data plus nationwide phone service in each of those 3 countries. In fact, the Australian provider gave a bonus 30 GB!

We sure don't get the same competitive prices here in Canada. PM is good but really, their prices should be what the main providers offer for 4G service at worst, if you ask me.

What is your experience when visiting other countries & buying another provider's SIM card from that country?

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 For sure. So far I've been simply refusing to pay for more, & choosing to conserve data. In the 2010s, I simply did without data, & used Shaw wireless hotspots for free where possible, which I still use today. 

If the big 3 want me to pay more, they'd better offer something better. I'm happy enough conserving data, but if 1 day they offer a reasonably priced plan with lots of data, I will consider it even if it's more than I pay for PM. 

This paper is a reminder of what I was hearing constantly in the 2010s about cell service in Canada. I think CBC Marketplace did episodes on cell bills multiple times too.

https://mcgillpolicyassociation.com/journal/2019/5/29/why-cell-phone-plans-in-canada-are-ridiculousl...

[BearFBI]

@bluejaywpg It covered all of Europe. I stayed in Greece for 3 weeks then Italy for 4 days. I topped up before I left Greece and had enough data for the rest of the trip. I actually had too much. I left with 12GB of data I think.

I was with Cosmote prepaied. The 50GB italy deal was TIM mobile.

I dont know if my number expires or if my account closed. When I insert the SIM here it connects Via Telus/Rogers/Bell. Data and Txt dosen't work. 

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

I think that if they can give a plan at $15 a month that they can give us an even cheaper plan that offers more. They just don't have to because there's no demand or fight for it.

It's like if you ate a few cookies and then went without for 6 months to a year and then had a few more. If you can do without for 6 months to a year you can do without forever if you had to. And in reverse, these telecom companies could easily give us way more benefits if they had to but because they don't have to, they won't.

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 I agree, it's almost like when I bought cheapo $25 shoes at Wal-Mart. Excellent price, but they're less comfortable & well, 1 month later they were worn out to shreds.

Sometimes the $100 brand name is worth the money, sometimes the cheapo brand is all you need. But if you absolutely need the $1,000 (that other countries sell for $100) specialty brand name & there's no other choice, then there's a problem. 

Things do need to change more. People have complained a lot about cell service in the past. I believe that the only reason why things are changing at all is because the federal government is threatening to take action if prices do not drop. Which is not much, but more than the previous government ever did.

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

I don't wanna kill the vibe and say things aren't changing I just don't see much change in the works.

We got Public, Lucky and Chatr. They are discount brands to the 3 monopolies. I don't really see the change in it other than they supply us with less so we pay less, as some of these discount brands literally advertise.

It'd be nice to see the big boys reduce their prices rather than come up with sister brands that are just weaker and offer less.

Oh well, time will tell.

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 Yes it's an oligopoly. Until the last few years, they were charging crazy amounts just for a simple plan with 2 GB of data. My friends in Ontario & Alberta were constantly complaining about very high prices & bad service.

But things are rapidly changing these days. Way overdue. Glad to have done my research & found PM. 

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

I personally have not been outside of Canada so my experience is limited.

What I can say is that I find the pricing for both phones and phone plans atrocious and other countries obviously have better leadership or something that are able to actually make reasonable business decisions.

Here in Canada it seems the 3 phone providers reign with their monopolized power and they don't really have anyone telling them to stop or to cease. Aside from yourself, I don't see many Canadians question anything that goes on, especially phones and phone plans.

I recently let go of Fido because they lied to me multiple times over.

So my new course of action is using the $15 plan here, so I can text people and I don't make many calls, and any calls I do make I have Fongo for.

I sure hope that in 5 years time - sooner would be ideal, that these companies are either dethroned or are forced to lower pricing to phone, internet and cable.

[AE_Collector]

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@bluejaywpg wrote:

@AE_Collector Thanks for the analysis & opinion. I often think of Canada as having 3.5 national cell companies, with Freedom being the 0.5 since their own network is concentrated in a few places in southern Ontario, Alberta, & BC. Although their subscribers can get service almost anywhere in Canada that the other players cover, it's on a different & limited amount of data compared to their own networks. Hopefully that will change soon. I'm surprised they haven't expanded more into western Canada because the parent company, Shaw, has their core business (cable TV & internet) there. One would think that there would be synergies speeding up the process of expanding cell service throughout western Canada. 

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I think they concentrate on where they get the biggest bang for the buck which is the areas with the most dense population. When BC Tel and Telus In Alberta merged to become a larger company They still were only the two western provinces. They quickly bought out Clearnet because as a relatively new cell company (Clearnet and Fido were the first two competitive companies to Cantel and the Incumbent Telcos) they were primarily in Ontario and Quebec, the area Telus wanted into overnight. Thus Shaw will still be a long time In providing its own network in less populous areas. Personally I don't get the idea of spending so much cash building yet another network in Canada. In my mind this limits the ability to lower prices rather than helping. Bell and Telus already work together a lot, Shaw should have tried to work with Rogers more maybe. The cost of infrastructure especially in BC is astronomical.

AE_Collector

(I know this isn’t a cell site but is rather a Microwave radio site on Noble Mountain on the BC coast providing telephone and Internet service to places like Kitkatla and Hartley Bay BC but is a good example of the extent Telus goes to to provide Telecom service to very remote areas.

[bluejaywpg]

@BearFBI I haven't been to mainland Europe yet but I wonder if you can get a plan that covers most or all of Europe for a reasonable price? Or if you have to get a SIM for every individual country?

Nice price for so much data!

[bluejaywpg]

@AE_Collector Thanks for the analysis & opinion. I often think of Canada as having 3.5 national cell companies, with Freedom being the 0.5 since their own network is concentrated in a few places in southern Ontario, Alberta, & BC. Although their subscribers can get service almost anywhere in Canada that the other players cover, it's on a different & limited amount of data compared to their own networks. Hopefully that will change soon. I'm surprised they haven't expanded more into western Canada because the parent company, Shaw, has their core business (cable TV & internet) there. One would think that there would be synergies speeding up the process of expanding cell service throughout western Canada. 

[bluejaywpg]

@fdrcamb519 A few provinces have 4th or 5th providers that keep prices lower. A prime example is Saskatchewan. SaskTel always offered lower cell rates & the big 3 had no choice but to match. They seem to have no problem competing with SaskTel. Same for Manitoba until Bell bought out MTS a few years ago. This would not have happened had the Manitoba government privatized MTS in the late 90s. I was not happy about all of that. Good on Saskatchewan for holding onto SaskTel. 

[bluejaywpg]

Thank you all for the great responses. 

@maximum_gato thanks for all the numbers and analysis. I thought Canada vs. Australia was a great comparison because both have somewhat similar populations & vast, unpopulated territories. Both also have populations that largely hug their southern borders, except Australia's border is with the ocean, whereas Canada's border is with another country.

Yet, I still got a SIM card & 35 GB of data in Australia for $30-35 total with any sales tax. I should find the receipt to see exactly what I paid. The provider was Optus. Over 18 days I was posting pictures & videos on Facebook, streaming live NHL games, you name it. I could only use about 6 GB or so LOL. Service was always good, & we were in many places including Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra, Perth, & others.

So I hope that our telcos do invest in the infrastructure as much as you say. Because when they threatened to reduce investment in rural services if they had to lower prices, I was not impressed. But I'm glad PM is here for people like us.

[BearFBI]

@bluejaywpg When I went to Greece I got 8GB of data, 100 Minuites, And 100Txt messages for 8.5 Euro (about 13CAD) I think Italy was offering a better deal with 10Euro for 50GB.

Canada just simply does not have enough competition. We need more Tiny Telecoms but the CRTC and the big 3 aren't allowing them. There aren't much cell providers that I can think of that aren't owned by the big 3. 

[maximum_gato]

@bluejaywpg 

       Excellent responses and insight regarding the high cost of mobile/data service in Canada. In particular you compared your experience in Australia and New Zealand  which offer better overall rates but canadas third tier providers do come close (pm's $40/5gb) with rates 20 - 25% higher than our Australian counterparts. More importantly comparing Canada and Australia rather than our traditional American comparisons better illustrates the differences in rate plans because of our remarkably similar countries statisically. Our population to geographical land size is almost equal with Canada 30% larger in land size than Australia and a population of 36 million to Australia's 24 million. In all other economic and social factors such as GDP, standard of living, US$ exchange rate, unemployment rate, average lifespan, political/judicial systems etc....we equate.*

       Interesting on the surface our mobile industry seems to compare with three major players each and services reaching 99.5% of the population and large portion of rural Australians relying heavily on radio phones and Canada having some coverabllity issues in the north. But.....Australia has a mobile subscription rate of 119/100 compared to Canada's 88/100. Due to lower plan costs? Where Canada comes out ahead is in the big three's investment on infrastructure and planning for future. In fact you can hardly compare Canada to any other country on this front. *

       Canadian wireless subscribers enjoy the fastest average mobile download connection speeds in the world, 287% faster than the global average. In Canada, average mobile download speeds are faster than all other G7 countries plus Australia, and over 123% faster than average download speed found in the United States. Long term evolution networks (LTE) which deliver higher speeds than previous generation networks, are available to 99.5% of Canadians.  LTE-advanced (LTE-A) networks offering even higher speeds than LTE, are now available to 95% of Canadians.**

     Canadian networks are also amazingly consistent, ranking 2nd out of 77 countries in the consistency of LTE speeds that wireless users experience throughout the day – 46% more consistent than U.S. networks. (Australian figures not available atm.)

In describing the state of Canada’s mobile wireless networks. It has been stated: “There’s no question Canada is a global 4G superpower today. That likely means there are few other countries better prepared than Canada to deploy the 5G networks of the future.**

    When it comes to investment this where the telecom providers in Canada outshine their fellow industry  "leaders" and can easily explain why we pay more for even the lowest tier services.

Canada’s leadership in wireless is possible only because of the significant investments made by Canadian facilities-based carriers.

Capital Expenditures

• Canadian operators’ investment in telecommunications as a percentage of revenue is 1st in the G7 and 4th amongst OECD nations. (OECD Digital Economy Outlook, October 2017)

• Facilities-based wireless carriers in Canada generate the most capital expenditure per subscriber among the G7 and Australia. (Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Global Wireless Matrix, December 2018)

• Canada’s facilities-based wireless carriers have invested over $70 billion in building Canada’s wireless networks (i.e. from 1987 to April, 2019 – over $50 billion in capital expenditures, with a further $17.6 billion in spectrum acquisition, and the remainder in annual spectrum license fees). (Historical data from Nordicity, CRTC, CWTA and BAML)

• It is estimated that, between 2020 and 2026, $26 billion will be spent in deploying 5G infrastructure in Canada, with most of such investment being made by Canada’s facilities-based wireless operators. (Accenture, Fuel for Innovation, 2018)**

And living in the best country in the world when it comes to freedoms, privacy protections, equality and access to the technological advances of the future is priceless really......

*Australia and Canada stats courtesy of Wikipedia   ** mobile/data industry stats courtesy of cwta.ca

[hairbag1]

@bluejaywpg...all good responses. Additionally, the cost to maintain cell service 24/7 for 365 days has to be steep. Specially in the mountains. Helicopters, cranes, professional crews...none of it is cheap.We all squawk like abused seagulls when service goes down...and demand it be fixed right now. Someone has to inspect / repair even when it's -30.

$25 a month for unlimited Canada wide calling, unlimited international texting...plus a gig of data...that's perdy reasonable all things considered. It used to cost me long distance rates just to call the next city over...about 10 miles away.

Prices for data are expensive but I'm not a data reliant person. I've minimized data consumption to the point where I usually have some left over at renewal.I use wifi whenever possible...even in foreign countries.

From my perspective...we get generally good value for what we pay in Canada. And I'm so thankful to be here...especially now.

We all have our own opinions and I do respect yours.

[AE_Collector]

So many possible things affecting cell prices and we don't know what all the influencing factors are in other countries.

I do know that the Canadian Government sells the bandwidth to Canadian cell companies and we are talking hundreds and hundreds of million dollars to purchase it and then more annual costs to continue using it.

I have seen what gets paid for the right to put a cell site on private or city/province owned property and it can typically be thousands of dollars per month. Canada Has a larger land mass than the USA though granted we don't likely cover as much of those square miles in Canada as the USA does.

All the millions and billions of dollars of equipment installed is most likely sold in $US but our cell phone plans are billed Out in $CDN.

Now factor in that no matter how you divide up the customers there are 10% of the paying customers in Canada compared to the USA. The cost of increased traffic on a cell site is low compared to the flat cost of placing and maintaining the site no matter the number of customers.

With our 10% of the customers compared to the USA we divide them across 4 national network based Cell providers. The USA also had 4 national providers but two just merged together and now there are three, further reducing their overhead.

Then we need to factor in what has become much more obvious to me over the last 3-4 years. We have a higher standard of living than the USA. We don't strive for everything to be dirt cheap here because that’s all that large numbers of our citizens can afford. Canadians and thus Canadian employees have health care, more vacation time, more stat holidays, better pay on average. This comes at a cost but also provides an across the board higher standard of living for our citizens.

Call me a Telus Cheerleader (they did pay me for 37 1/2 years), I don't think the difference is really that great. We are able to do better by shopping Around more for less expensive options like PM. I think the biggest discrepancy is in the big data plans. We still have more of. Premium for more data than whet it should be possibly. But things are getting better here. PM prices haven't changed for awhile yet the parent company has offered much better 10 & 20 Gb plans where you bring your own device. I keep thinking that there will be some sort of across the board improvements to PM plans soon whether it is a bit of a data bump, a bit of a plan cost drop or maybe a bit of a data speed improvement. Who knows... I don't.

AE_Collector

[fdrcamb519]

@bluejaywpg 
why are some provinces more expensive than others??????

[geopublic]

Why are Canadian providers charging so much? Simple, because they can!😯

[yanzhiqiang]

Maybe because less population so less customers.

[Anonymous]

Well really what'r'y'gonna do. We have what we have. So all we can do is make the best of what's on offer. Here at PM we have rewards. Many regulars here (and I'm sure other customers not on the community) are paying nothing for their services. Nothing beats cheap rates somewhere else in the world. How many of those cheap rates can cover a land mass like Canada? Yes there are gaps. It's a big country. But for the vast majority of us and the vast majority of our usage needs...it's all good.

[shep22]

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@bluejaywpg wrote:

I hate that I visited Iceland, New Zealand, & Australia in the last 2 years & for $30-35 CAD I got 5 GB of 4G data plus nationwide phone service in each of those 3 countries. In fact, the Australian provider gave a bonus 30 GB!

We sure don't get the same competitive prices here in Canada. PM is good but really, their prices should be what the main providers offer for 4G service at worst, if you ask me.

What is your experience when visiting other countries & buying another provider's SIM card from that country?

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@bluejaywpg well that's the million dollar question why indeed lol corporate greed I guess and we are foolish enough to pay for it at least here it is fairly resonable