Why is Canada so expensive for cell service?

[bluejaywpg]

I hate that I visited Iceland, New Zealand, & Australia in the last 2 years & for $30-35 CAD I got 5 GB of 4G data plus nationwide phone service in each of those 3 countries. In fact, the Australian provider gave a bonus 30 GB!

We sure don't get the same competitive prices here in Canada. PM is good but really, their prices should be what the main providers offer for 4G service at worst, if you ask me.

What is your experience when visiting other countries & buying another provider's SIM card from that country?

[bluejaywpg]

You guys are talking about rewards. Obviously using the forums here is 1 way. Autopay is another. Referring friends is yet another. And loyalty is 1 more way to reduce one's monthly payment after at least 1 year.

I'm assuming there are no other ways? I haven't read much about the rewards beyond that yet.

Convincing my friends to move over is going to be tough. I tell people constantly about ways that I save money & the 2 response types I always get are either they do it already or they express general disinterest. I don't get it. People are weird. I don't understand why learning how to save money isn't of interest by default. People are not convinced by facts. It seems like many people are more convinced by smooth talkers. Something I have no idea how to do, apparently. 

But when I see a way to save money, I am immediately interested. 

[maximum_gato]

@B12 

For autopay you only need a card with a valid expiry date you can still pay with vouchers. My roommate had my credit card on his that was stolen about three weeks after he activated his account but remained on his account until 6 weeks ago. The kelloggs $5 visa gift cards i recieved for their gas card promotion also work or popular by many a koho visa/debit card. There are many options to utilize the autopay reward and still pay by voucher. That $2 represents a 13.33% savings off your plan amount.

[B12]

@AE_Collector 

I may toss $5 PM's way for Canada LD minutes but I can't see myself getting any data addons. To me it is only worth it if it is at true LTE speeds, which it is evidently not.

I'm seriously considering doing AutoPay so I pay nothing after awhile.

Unrelated, what does AE mean in your name?

[maximum_gato]

@AE_Collector 

Lol......great minds think alike!

Shouldn't this qualify this thread  to be back up in the main forum since were back to a specifically public mobile discussion about plans and add ons.........lol just saying! Quick add a phone pic!

[AE_Collector]

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@B12 wrote:

@maximum_gato 

Honestly, if the $15 plan offered 250 minutes outgoing, unlimited incoming, and 250-500MB of LTE data... I'd be sold.

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<edit> @maximum_gato  both furiously typing the same thing!...

Okay, $15 is really $13.

Add the $5/500 minute add on. Using 150 minutes of it gets the 100 minutes to 250 minutes for $1.50 (prorated). Now you are back to $14.50.

It already has 250 Mb of LTE data but yeah, it is throttled speed. If you are good with 250-500 Mb a month I have a hard to believing you are an intense data user who would really notice that it is throttled. But you would be happier with 500 Mb, not 250 Mb. So, add the $15/1Gb of data and factor in $3.75 a month for the 250 Mb you will use of it each month.

Total is $18.25 instead of $15. But, bth these add-ones that I mentioned will roll over. So, if you dont use all of the extra 150 minutes of outgoing calling OR all of the 250 Mb of data, it isn’t lost and will get you further down the road on your $15->$13 plan before you have to add more add-ons thus it wont really cost you the whole $3.25 average per month on top of the $15.

In my mind, this is p[pretty darned close to exactly what you want to make you happy. And dont forget the $1 discount coming your way at 1 year, $2 discount at 2 years and look out if you manage to refer a friend or three!

All just my opinion of course.....

AE_Collector

[maximum_gato]

@B12 

Would you pay $20 every 30 days for your dream plan? Easy enough to reduce that plan cost to $0 with rewards.....you have a plan builder option with the $15 plan. Not exactly as you describe it but close......

1. $15 plan w/unlimited texts, incoming calls, 100 outgoing minutes and 250mb data
2. Add the $5/500 min calling add on
3. Add the $15/1gb data add on

The math: 4×$15=$60 + 1×$5 +1×$15= $80÷4 (months of service) =$20 per 30 days. Averaged over 4 months of usage with flexibility of add ons rolling over vs included plan minutes/data. This will give you the following plan.....

1. $20 build your own plan w/ unlimited texts, incoming calls
2. 225 outgoing calling minutes (100 plan minutes, 125 roll over minutes)
3. 500 MB 4G LTE throttled to 3G * speed (250mb plan data, 250mb, roll over data) 

*This gets you close to what your looking for....with the exception of full 4G data but with 500mb of required data I highly doubt you need full speed 4G LTE data for your needs.

[B12]

@maximum_gato 

Honestly, if the $15 plan offered 250 minutes outgoing, unlimited incoming, and 250-500MB of LTE data... I'd be sold.

I used to have PM back in the days where they'd let you choose your plan and I probably should have just stuck to what I had then and used rewards to reduce it to nothing.

[maximum_gato]

@B12 

Work those rewards and youll be hard pressed to find something to present itself better than a $0 phone bill.

[B12]

@maximum_gato 

Well, I'm staying here till something else presents itself that is better.

[maximum_gato]

@bluejaywpg 

         I think you've had your original question answered......and while we do (or some of us do) pay some of the highest prices in the world for mobile phone plans for arguably the best network in the world in a first world country and the societal benefits that lie there in. One could also argue we pay the cheapest rates in the world.

        I know I do since switching my two lines from telus and freedom. Just by switching i cut my bill(s) in half. By being proactive and taking advantage of rewards and plan pricing offered by public mobile I reduced one phone bill to $0 within 60 days. You can't get cheaper than free! (Unless you count credits....) My second main line has been reduced to 10% of its former cost and with a similar combination and added luck (contests), work (feedback honoriums) and time (loyalty reward) my second line is $0 after 365 days. So......some people choose to pay for expensive mobile phone plans in Canada and all the bells and whistles they come with.

      As I read further into this thread and the price of cell phones comes with up @B12 the choice of what you want to spend on a phone is completely subjective. As @AE_Collector  pointed out an iPhone costs about the same everywhere with differences in price variable dependant on taxation and foreign exchange rates. Luxury goods (flagship cell phones, Gucci bags or Bentleys) are exactly that....a luxury if you cant afford it or must save for it and mobile plans are the same....if you want the frills you have to pay for it.

        The trade off here is in order to have the best integrated mobile phone/data network and best equipped to roll out 5G technology in the world somebody has to pay for that infrastructure. That's  what telus, bell and rogers customers do is subsidize that investment and to a lesser extent, koodo, fido and virgin. As with lucky, chatr and public mobile we do without certain frills to pay less and some cases way less or like myself almost nothing or nothing at all.

       You could make the same argument about the price of gasoline and the cost of new versus used cars in this country. It's all a matter of choice. I choose to not drive nor own a vehicle. I think it's luxurious expense once you also factor in insurance and fuel costs (especially in Vancouver.) Instead I rely slightly on public transit and mostly on pedal power ( of which I put a cost of $100 per year averaged for bike cost, maintenance and parts.) I recently stepped it up due to circumstance (health and mobility) to an e-bike. Cost $1300 which gives greater range for travel but also equals the cost of a one zone transit pass in vancouver and could easily cover 2 zones worth commuting travel with similar or better commute travel times than either transit or vehicle. An ebike especially higher end ones may be a luxury for other cyclist or drivers but for me its now a necessity for my mobility/travel. It's all relative to your circumstance.

@B12   I do agree.....fido operates a fraudulent based system of added charges and deceptive billing and it's my mission to switch as many of their customers to pm as I possibly can.......

[Korth]

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@B12 wrote:

They have added too much fluff (scripts/trackers) to websites so now we need like 8 cores with 2Ghz plus processors in order for the sites to load quickly.r

 Faster hardware is one option.

A lightweight browser with scriptblocker, adblocker, popblocker is another option. A better one because it's not only faster browsing but it just doesn't load the bloat so it doesn't eat your mobile data. And it doesn't put ads or trackers in your face, a definite selling point for weirdo tinfoil hat anticonsumers like me.

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

My Galaxy Note 4 cost me $200 and it works alright for the cost. I know it's "ancient" by industry standards so I don't expect a lot out of it. I wanted it especially because the display is very clear and it has a removable battery... a lost art for smartphones today.

I tend to use it most at night for YouTube. I text very little and call even less. And browsing although slow is just fine to look at the weather or find a business number.

They have added too much fluff (scripts/trackers) to websites so now we need like 8 cores with 2Ghz plus processors in order for the sites to load quickly. They tell you that you need the best and fastest phone so that you are "up to date" when in reality I think it's more like, you give them tons of money for something that ain't worth a third of the price and it's so that you can visit websites with ease while they track you and everything else.

There is so much they try to make sound like it's advantageous for both the customer and the service provider... I'm sorry to say I think the latter gains more from it all.

I have an original iPhone SE, bought it for $160 around late 2019, early 2020. It kept dying on me, like quickly... The phone could be at 80%, suddenly dip to 30% and then poof, dead. So I reached up to some technicians online and they explained that iPhone's battery's only last about 18 months before they "sh** the bed", and this is so Apple can get you to buy something new. Well I wasn't too accepting of that. So I bought a new battery for it, replaced it and it has been working like new for months now. To those curious or to whom it may concern, I was told that when it comes to iPhones, when the battery HEALTH is at 85% it's barely usable, 90% and over is just fine. 80% is useless. I don't use it because the OS is too restricted.

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 I haven't had much luck in the under $300 CAD market. Every phone I've tried is slow or buggy in some way. So I've been somewhere in the $400-800 market for our last 3 phones. They have all worked well. 

Of course, it also depends how much you use your phone. If you want only talking & texting, get a flip phone or a very low end smartphone. If you use your phone for browsing, Facebook, listening to music, GPS, your main camera, controlling your smart devices, watching videos, yada yada yada, essentially it's in your hands every moment of your life when you're not doing something else, you'll  want something more. 

I imagine most people fall somewhere in between, but usually end up with with more than they need because they don't do their research at all & are of the mindset that Apple & Samsung are the only phone manufacturers. 

I refuse to buy an iPhone. Main reason is cost vs. features. Paying a premium price for a small phone with fewer features will never get my business. And that ugly physical home button, while not a deal breaker, doesn't help either. I was going to take an iPhone 7 from work 2 years ago when I needed a replacement phone, which would've been free to use, but I realized that I would've gone absolutely crazy with it so I bought my own Android phone instead. 

But I don't blame you for sticking with that price range if you can make it work for you. 

[bluejaywpg]

@Korth And there are other costs too, including those not at all related to the phone itself. Paying for the head office & regional offices, sales people, advertising & marketing, salaries of the designers, etc. 

I imagine when a company sells multi millions of each phone model it puts out, along with other things like computers, refrigerators, etc., those costs are peanuts.

But somehow, Samsung prices their phones from low to high, Apple prices theirs from high to ultra high, & both make truckloads of money, especially Apple. I didn't include the S20 which could be called super ultra high. Not sure how the folding technology adds several hundred dollars but I won't be buying it anytime soon. 

[B12]

@Korth 

This is why I won't pay a lot for a phone.

My golden "rule" as always been I'll pay $200 for the average phone, $300 max. No phone, unless made of exceptional materials (no, not like Samsung or Apple) is worth more than $300. If it's "worth" more than $300 it's inflated fluff.

[Korth]

@B12 

Google Fairphone cost breakdown to get an idea of how much the components which go into a smartphone actually cost. (Or Fairphone 2, or Fairphone 3, which have very similar breakdowns.)

In the example I linked, the final consumer price is nominally €325 ($505 CAD) and indeed less than €20 represents the actual cost of materials and energy used in manufacturing. Along with another €25 (or more) for all the logistics and transport needed to move components from site to site and country to country during various stages of manufacturing, assembly, production, distribution, and retail. And another €50 or so to pay for licensing and royalties and certifications associated with legally marketing the technologies.

I imagine that real smartphone manufacturers who are both the ODM and OEM (like, say, Samsung) can reduce some of these costs since they don't have to pay themselves for patents and processes. While lesser smartphone manufacturers who are basically just design houses and branding (like, say, Apple) have to pay more to outsource these things, albeit sometimes with megabucks worth of negotiating leverage and longterm bulk discounts. And I imagine that some of the cost elements (like design and engineering) are incredibly variable - small companies wanna make maximum money, big businesses wanna pay minimum money, sometimes the phone is basically already designed for them (the SoC designers have already embedded all the work and you just add whatever extra hardware features you like) while sometimes the phone has to be designed almost entirely from the bottom up (because proprietary paths, sometimes you forge your own, sometimes you reach a dead end forged by someone else, sometimes you detour around global costs or technical obstacles or legal trespasses).

But yeah, TL;DR version is that the actual bits of silicons and plastics and metals in your pocket are worth only a few bucks. Their value comes from the industrial sophistication needed to turn those scraps of raw junk into technologically-dense mobile computing platforms. And everybody involved in inventing that stuff gets a tiny percentage. Then commodity value is added. Then marketing and branding inflates perceived value. As long as consumers continue to willingly pay premium price for premium toys there's no motivation for any links in the smartphone supply chain to make smartphone prices lower.

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 Yes China is a cheap place to manufacture phones or any electronics. Though I read that Samsung just closed its last manufacturing plant last year & is shifting production to other countries, likely south Asian countries like Vietnam or Thailand. 

[B12]

Much of what I'm about to write is based on conjecture rather than fact. I have seen articles around that bring some validity to this though, they aren't hard to find.

Google something like "how smartphones are produced in china".

There is a reason most consumer products are built in China, it's cheap as hell for the companies to do it, then they import to North America - for example, and what cost them maybe $20 a phone, they up it to $600 or more, then there is likely some inflation and more fluff plus the taxes.

[bluejaywpg]

@AE_Collector I think in the past it often was good to go on a contract. But it had to be done when there was a good deal such as Boxing Day. I've scored a couple of great deals for Samsung Galaxy S series phones for free & with a gift card bonus too. 2 GB plan for $50 a month plus I got a further discount through my employer so I paid $40 per month. 

[Korth]

Canadian telecommunications industry = Big Three Oligopoly.

Corporate greed is certainly part of it. Entrenched CRTC traditions and other governmental mucking around is the other part; it provides a stable, controlled source of state revenue. Without any impetus to work hard (or at all) at improvement.

American and European telecommunications industries = Free Market Competition.

Every nation faces unique challenges which add to operating costs, Canada is not a special exception. But open markets where consumers can choose between hungry competitors always ends up increasing supply and reducing costs, one way or another. Competitive markets force innovation because there's no substitute for success.

[AE_Collector]

We travelled in China in 2012 and a tour guide lamented about the new iPhone (whatever it was way back then) costing them the equivalent of $US900 so if they could get to Hong Kong it was less, maybe around $US700. Chinese average earnings are what...$200 a year? But a tour guide for N Americans would obviously make much better $$. But my point is, I don't think Canada is cranking the price of phones up, they should be very competitive. Though they are probably all priced initially in $US so the exchange rate sure isn’t helping.

I can never figure why people go for plans with phones. Probably only because it is less up front to get a new phone. But over all I would assume you wind up paying more than getting your own phone AND it encourages customers to move up to the next new model every 24 months even though most could probably live with the phone they have for another year or two. I typically keep a phone for around 4 years after it is handed down to me after its first two years.

AE_Collector

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

Yeah, I say it's one big club, and you and I are not in it. I would not want to be either, it's takes a big ego to do what's happening.

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 Yes I remember when the smartphone market was really exciting. Phone makers were adding features left & right like more apps, cameras, GPS location, the ability to measure your steps, bigger screens, lighter phones, you name it. 

But although upgrading cell towers to 5G may be more labour intensive than redesigning a phone, it's clear to me too that they are not exactly in a rush. If you think about it - had cell phone companies pushed 5G & maybe even "6G", they may have been able to get people to ditch their homeq-based internet for cell-based home internet. The problem is that they would likely be competing against themselves since they also provide home internet services. 

So you're right. No rush!

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

I'm inclined to think they have more than enough to do it. With the profit they gain, they could do much more than they do.

You might have noticed that Samsung has come out with folding smartphones only because the market for normal bricks are getting REAL stale.

Bell and the rest are slowly coming out with 5G because it's not like they are in a rush, the current 4G/LTE is just a rainy day fund. Once 5G comes out, you watch, the price of 4G/LTE will slowly be the same as 3G is now, and 3G like 2G will be obsolete and removed. I'm pretty sure the only remaining carrier in Canada that does 2G is Rogers and only in certain areas.

[MoreYummy]

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@BearFBI wrote:

@bluejaywpg It covered all of Europe. I stayed in Greece for 3 weeks then Italy for 4 days. I topped up before I left Greece and had enough data for the rest of the trip. I actually had too much. I left with 12GB of data I think.

I was with Cosmote prepaied. The 50GB italy deal was TIM mobile.

I dont know if my number expires or if my account closed. When I insert the SIM here it connects Via Telus/Rogers/Bell. Data and Txt dosen't work. 

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which carrier were you using in europe and how much per month?

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 LOL OK I won't post any more articles. But I always feel that I need to read & see if anything has changed or if the astronomical profits that the big 3 are making might be used to build enough 5G towers to cover every square centimetre of Canada LOL. 

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

Oh god, f...

You're killing me with these articles.

We know prices are too high, we don't need reminders. 😬🤕

[bluejaywpg]

@B12 Yup you guessed it. I'm reading another depressing article now. You're absolutely right. Things are still not as good as elsewhere. 

https://www.whistleout.ca/CellPhones/Guides/canada-phone-plan-pricing/amp

[B12]

@bluejaywpg 

I might give that a read later, I got through half a paragraph and it's too depressing to read on. 😂

I'm going to guess right now that the "TL;DR" of it is that Canadians pay an astronomical amount of money for phones and phone plans and the rest of the world is not nearly as bad.

It really is a pity, regardless of if my guess is right, that our carriers are this vicious.

[bluejaywpg]

@BearFBI Good to know. I haven't tried any of my SIM cards from Iceland, New Zealand, or Australia here at home. But I think they are all supposed to have expired after 30 days. I  looked into service providers that covered both New Zealand & Australia such as Spark, which is in both countries, as we visited both on the same vacation last year, but no luck. I had to pay twice. But that's a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost of a month long vacation in both countries!