A PM EV Chat Thread

[Anonymous]

As has come up on occasion here...I have the Chevy "Bolt EV". I just call it Bolt. Chevy already weirded things up naming it similarly to their earlier hybrid - Volt. Too similar speech method. What were they thinking. It's a great name but that's just silly.

Anyway: I had been thinking about EV's since the Leaf but the range wasn't useful living in a more rural area at the time. I had been eyeing the Bolt since it came out for 2017. Rated for 383km. Still expensive though certainly not like a Tesla. BC had a $5K rebate. Still expensive but a little better. BC car dealers also had the scrap-it rebate for up to $6K. Well ok maybe we need to look at this more. Then May '19 the feds came out with their $5K rebate. Alrighty then. I was in the door the morning it came out and scrapped my 1992 Geo Metro for six thousand dollars.

Love it. Not paying for gas all the time is awesome. Everybody has "gas" at home which of course is paid in the bill with all your other usage. In BC there are plenty of free chargers. The fast type along many highway corridors and the slower type at hotels or offered by towns and cities. Then there's an expanding network of other charging fast chargers.

It's also a little rocket. Even with my second car (now sold) one has to think about passing something on the highway. The Metro...fuggedaboudit. This little rocket boots out and flies around. Leaving people in the dust at lights still hasn't got old. You have to start a little easy at first otherwise you'd just sit there spinning tires there's so much power being applied to them.

The power regen going down hills and one pedal driving are amazing. One rarely needs to touch the brake pedal. Also some regen just slowing down.

If I were rich then maybe I would have looked more at a Tesla. But there's still the sort of warm comfort knowing the Bolt is good ol' Chevrolet.

Due to some circumstances, this will be my first winter using the car. Charging speed at fast chargers takes a bit of a hit as does range. You can maintain some control of power consumption but the batteries themselves take their own power to maintain their temperature. But we're still talking upwards to 300km.

As for fast charging traveling somewhere, yes you need to plan a little. So when you stop to charge then that's time to eat and stretch and other activities. It's just a shift in lifestyle of driving places. It's not hard. It's so doable in BC nowadays.

So that's my start.

[darlicious]

@Anonymous 

Uhoh maybe I owe you a bottle of wine for wasting your time.....🤔

Here are the updates on the rfd thread since I posted the link yesterday.

I don't think this is a targeted offer per se, but think that you have to have a linked card in order for it to appear in the RBC offer page in online banking. here is the first sentence of the offer from RBC

Exclusive offer for linked clients. Opt in and receive a full refund on all of your electric vehicle charging at Petro-Canada EV locations. Simply opt-in and pay using your Eligible linked RBC Card* until April 30th 2022, and you’ll receive your refund via statement credit. Come experience Canada’s Electric HighwayTM.

If you take this literally, you would first link your card and then the offer should show up. Hence, my assumption would be that for anyone just applying for a card or does not yet have their card linked, then do this first.

here are the instructions to link and if necessary, create a petro points card

https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/petro-canada/

Another post mentioned you have to click on "load offers" and screenshot of the offer that was also posted. Hope this helps....others said the offer only appeared today.

[Anonymous]

What. A. Shamozzle.

Called Petro-Can. Huh? Dunno. Call the bank.

Called the bank (dang I hate voice-automated chatbots) . Huh? Dunno. Go to a branch.

Went to a branch. Huh? Dunno. After much fiddling and me logging in to my account on their computer. Yeah that was comforting what with all the cameras everywhere and a foreign-to-my-account computer. Buried way down in some menu somewhere was something about signing up to offers. No EV offer. More fiddling and they appeared to have logged in to their own account and saw the offer but the kicker is that maybe it only works for some cards but not all. Inconclusive though. But they were fine to take all the time to try to figure it all out.

Went to another branch. Huh? Dunno. They were way less helpful than the first branch. I left.

Went to a Petro-Can charger and used my RBC card and did a small charge. That card is linked to a Petro-points account and shows as linked at RBC as well and can get 3 cents off a litre....of gas!. 🙂   I guess I'll see if the credit for the small charge comes back. And then if the alleged offer shows up.

[popping]

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@srlawren wrote:

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@srlawren wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

Charge for time or kwh?

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@Anonymous 

• If you don't have any free credits, you typically get charged by the kWh, and I'm sure this must vary by province or even by regions within.  It's typically more $/kWh than it would cost you to charge at home (e.g. through BC Hydro or whatever) to incentivize you to charge at home/work whenever possible and mostly/only use supercharging for road trips or occasional need as they arise.  I think at one point Canada (or parts of Canada) required Tesla to charge by the minute rather than by the electrons, but regulations were recently changed.  Sorry for being vague here but usually it's by the kWh.

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@Anonymous yeah I was definitely wrong here.  I've since read that charging is by the minute.  Recently got our Tesla so have not yet done any public charging, supercharging or otherwise, but I do believe the info I gave above was quite wrong. My apologies for the misinformation!

EDIT: I believe most charging providers use a tiered charging, depending on the kWh you're getting.  Still a bit murky on the details.

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@srlawren 

I read someone who owns a Tesla for 10 years.  He pays very little to charge his Tesla at Supercharging stations.  Are you on the Tesla referral program?

[Anonymous]

 @srlawren : BC Hydro had some chargers that charged for power. Then they all went free. Now they're charging for time. Petro-Can does time. Electrify Canada (Canadian Tire) does time. Fortis does time and they're a supplier not a reseller.

I don't like it. I'm buying a measurable metered "thing" ... power... not time like parking. I buy the measurable metered thing in my house to "fill" my car. (well I'm in an apartment now so no more)

[darlicious]

@srlawren 

Congrats on the new tesla! Well I hope you can save some $$$ over the next year with that RBC/Petrocan deal it will certainly eliminate your "fuel" cost on roadtrips once we can take them again!

Apparently @Anonymous  is coming visit me this summer with a nice bottle of pinot noir or a cab/sav. Hopefully the wife likes camping we can weekend at the lake!🍷😃🍷 He can get here faster in his EV than I can get to the Okanagan on my e-bike.

[srlawren]

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@srlawren wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

Charge for time or kwh?

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@Anonymous 

• If you don't have any free credits, you typically get charged by the kWh, and I'm sure this must vary by province or even by regions within.  It's typically more $/kWh than it would cost you to charge at home (e.g. through BC Hydro or whatever) to incentivize you to charge at home/work whenever possible and mostly/only use supercharging for road trips or occasional need as they arise.  I think at one point Canada (or parts of Canada) required Tesla to charge by the minute rather than by the electrons, but regulations were recently changed.  Sorry for being vague here but usually it's by the kWh.

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@Anonymous yeah I was definitely wrong here.  I've since read that charging is by the minute.  Recently got our Tesla so have not yet done any public charging, supercharging or otherwise, but I do believe the info I gave above was quite wrong. My apologies for the misinformation!

EDIT: I believe most charging providers use a tiered charging, depending on the kWh you're getting.  Still a bit murky on the details.

[srlawren]

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@popping wrote:

How safe is the Li-Ion battery in EV car?

How expensive is to replace the battery in the EV car 10 years down the?

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@poppywhat is your safety concern?  There's a few aspects here.  If you're worried about fire, do a little research, since EVs have fewer fires per units/miles.  When an EV catches fire, media jump all over it; when a gasoline car catches fire, it's rarely newsworthy.  

If you're worried about crash safety, don't.  I can't speak for all EVs, but Teslas are among the safest vehicles to be in in a crash.  The lack of an engine in the front makes for an excellent crumple zone (this applies to all EVs with a "frunk", as most but not all have).  The battery packs make for a very low centre of gravity.  Check out the crash tests on Tesla vehicles.  For a crossover/SUV, the Model Y and X are highly unlikely to flip in a collision, for example.  Was there another concern I didn't mention?

Concerns around long-term battery life seem largely unfounded.  Modern battery management systems in EVs are quite intelligent. Also, manufacturers only expose a certain "usable" percentage of the battery to help protect it's longevity, and you can further limit degradation by setting a daily max change amount of around 80% or so and not routinely charging to 100% or discharging fully.  In terms of cost, the $/kWh costs of battery tech continues to drop over time, so by the time your new EV might theoretically require a new pack many years from now, the cost should likely be pretty reasonable.

[darlicious]

@popping 

Hmmm....I think you are underestimating the life of a lithium ion battery. By your estimate my 2017 A3 should barely hold a charge but has probably only dimished by maybe 10%.

An e-bike battery ( generally 36v or 48v) lasts between 2 to 4 years with up to 1000 charges with a variable distance depending on how much pedal assist you use of 32km to 120km. Their replacement cost varies between $200-$1000 but the average is $300-$400 depending on voltage. An average cost about $0.15 per full charge (80%=90 min/100%=150min).

I can't speak for EV batteries but your savings on the cost of gas is infinitely better than battery replacement costs but of course less so in Alberta with Canada's cheapest gas prices vs BC with Canada's highest gas prices.

[Anonymous]

 @popping : Seems to me to be quite a number of chargers in AB. The orange ones are fast chargers like the ones at Petro-cans. The green ones are not. There are also many orange ones "under" green ones. The "wrenches" are being built. Edit: The grey ones are being used restricted at the time I took this screencap. Canadian Tire has chargers. Many car dealers do as you mentioned. A lot of towns are putting them in as a bit of a business draw.

How safe is a gas car? How many fires have they had? So many they don't make the news anymore.

Future replacement cost is unknown as far as I know. I seem to think I had read somewhere that it could be more than $5k, less than $10k. How much does one spend on gas car maintenance all the time? On gas? On engine rebuilds or major repair?

The EV has very little maintenance that one might need to pay for. Of course no constant gas cost. So you're saving that all the way through.

[popping]

It will be awhile before AB see any EV charging stations.  My Honda dealer has two charging stations at their show room entrance.

How safe is the Li-Ion battery in EV car?

How expensive is to replace the battery in the EV car 10 years down the?

Cellphone Li-Ion battery has about 500 - 600 charge/discharge cycles.  Therefore, cellphone Li-Ion battery will last about 2 years.

[Anonymous]

You're on!

Thanks

[darlicious]

@Anonymous 

Ah yes I forgot about @ecowen ! Hey I'm here to save members $$$....if we ever meet I will expect you to buy the first bottle of red.....🍷😃🍷!

[Anonymous]

 @darlicious : That's fantastic! I already have an RBC linked to Petro-points. I need to figure out if that's enough for this deal.

 @ecowen might be interested to know this too.

Thanks very much for that heads up.

[darlicious]

@Anonymous @stevenanto 

This thread from rfd might interest you folks if you bank at RBC. Free EV charging rebate.

https://forums.redflagdeals.com/petro-canada-rbc-customers-free-ev-charging-petro-canada-2462403/

[stevenanto]

@Anonymous The only way to get some free supercharging at this time is if you have a referral code from another tesla owner (works just like PM) you will receive 1500km worth of supercharging. They used to have unlimited lifetime supercharging for the first model s and x for early adopters to Tesla but you are talking about purchasing a car well over 100K. 

I can sort of see what youre saying about Tesla owners not needing help if they can "afford" the car. But even the ones over 100K get 3k incentive. In Quebec I got the 8K incentive for the Model Y, the model 3 gets the 8k and the 5K federal. If you can save money over the years to get a car or anything you want for that matter it shouldn't be labelling someone as not needing help. Like I mentioned we trade up from a 2007 accent, complete rust bucket, different color panels, pieces falling off of the car when  would drive sometimes. It was time. If you watch and budget your money you can buy items or do activities (vacation) you would much more prefer. 

[Anonymous]

 @will13am : I understand that brake fluid is about hygroscopicity (how 'bout that for a word)...it takes on "water" and then rusts the lines from the inside out. And lowers the boiling point.

[will13am]

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@Anonymous wrote:

 @will13am : Exactly. No fluid changes every time you turn around and fewer moving parts. Keep a bottle of windshield goop on board and you're set.

My car maintenance schedule: 240K or 5 years coolant, 5 years brake fluid. That's it. Everything else can be done easily enough ie. wipers, cabin filter, rotate tires (as if 🙂 ). And the fluid jobs could likely be done by any shop, like tires.

No. Gas.

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No need for washer fluid if the street are uneven and you can find a good puddle.  The only fluid I ever change is the oil and only because blowby gases contaminate the oil.  I don't track my car and so the brake fluid has never ever boiled.  That never needs changing.  Cabin air filters can be cleaned and reused.  I look forward to not having to buy gas one day.  The oil changes will end at the same time.  This car will be offered up on Amazon prime with free 2 day shipping.  

[Anonymous]

 @will13am : Exactly. No fluid changes every time you turn around and fewer moving parts. Keep a bottle of windshield goop on board and you're set.

My car maintenance schedule: 240K or 5 years coolant, 5 years brake fluid. That's it. Everything else can be done easily enough ie. wipers, cabin filter, rotate tires (as if 🙂 ). And the fluid jobs could likely be done by any shop, like tires.

No. Gas.

[will13am]

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@srlawren wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

 @srlawren : Oh right I forgot...guess who calls the shots at the scrap-it program?...New Car Dealership Association of BC 🙂 No Tesla dealers. They're all corporate direct sales stores...even though they're members. Oh hey I see you're participating over on the teslamotorsclub forum 🙂 Nevermind...you know all this.

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@Anonymous yes, good ol' dealership association.  The same folks that blocked the referrer side of Tesla's referral program in BC.  Gotta "love" 'em.

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Worry not, once large scale adoption of EVs takes place, the funding model for dealerships will fail.  

[srlawren]

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@Anonymous wrote:

 @srlawren : Oh right I forgot...guess who calls the shots at the scrap-it program?...New Car Dealership Association of BC 🙂 No Tesla dealers. They're all corporate direct sales stores...even though they're members. Oh hey I see you're participating over on the teslamotorsclub forum 🙂 Nevermind...you know all this.

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@Anonymous yes, good ol' dealership association.  The same folks that blocked the referrer side of Tesla's referral program in BC.  Gotta "love" 'em.

[Anonymous]

 @srlawren : Oh right I forgot...guess who calls the shots at the scrap-it program?...New Car Dealership Association of BC 🙂 No Tesla dealers. They're all corporate direct sales stores...even though they're members. Oh hey I see you're participating over on the teslamotorsclub forum 🙂 Nevermind...you know all this.

[srlawren]

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@Anonymous wrote:

 @srlawren : re: Teslas eligibility...whoever has the means to choose to afford a Tesla doesn't need anybody's help. 🙂

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@Anonymous here's the thing: if you look at the Qualifying EV's list on Scrap-it site (https://scrapit.ca/qualifyingevs/), you will see several vehicles in the same price category as Model 3 and Model Y, up to a max of $77k: Polestar 2, Mustang Mach-E, Volvo XC40, Toyota Mirai.  So you can't say that just because someone can afford to choose a Tesla they don't need the scrap it benefit, as you'd need to say that for every one of those vehicles as well.

[Anonymous]

 @srlawren : re: Teslas eligibility...whoever has the means to choose to afford a Tesla doesn't need anybody's help. 🙂 The base model was just that much more that put it beyond me able to justify when I'm looking at the Bolt and Kona. One could say of course that if one can choose to afford any longer range EV that maybe you don't need help either but they did draw the line somewhere in their attempts to get more EV's on the road. I would go so far as to say that hybrids should not be eligible either.

I have also become much more accustomed to not climbing up off the ground to get out of a car. The Bolt has a higher sitting position. Not that much lower than my old Jeep Cherokee. Lower cars and sedans are not.

[srlawren]

@Anonymous not quite yet but likely soon.  🙂  

I wish the Teslas qualified for Scrap It program.  For some reason they don't, even though Model Y in the same price category as Polestar 2 and Mustang Mach-E. [Edit: both of which are included in the program.] Go figure.

[Anonymous]

Thanks @srlawren . I take it you have a Tesla?

My having the Chevy Bolt, I understand about charging and costs. The Bolt has several taper points.

I _believe_ it's only BCHydro that is regulatorily permitted to charge by the kwh for the fast charging. Which is odd since Fortis also produces power but they charge by the minute on their fast chargers. The other fast charging systems like Petro-Can and Canadian Tire (Electrify Canada) charge by the minute. There is some argument over which is cheaper and strategies to take advantage of one or the other.

iirc there was a brief window of time where Tesla actually priced their base model under 45K to be eligible for the rebates. But it was very brief. The Hyundai Kona was priced slightly higher too but when the feds announced, they dropped their price.

I got the federal, larger earlier provincial and the BC Scrap-it benefits when I bought almost 2 years ago.

I mostly charge now at a free L2 charger 15 minutes walk away. Of course these days there's not much driving around visiting going on. Not too much longer 🙂

[srlawren]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Can you explain to me how the supercharger thing works. Is it free? Is it free for a limited time? If not free then how much? Is it the same cost at any supercharger? Charge for time or kwh? Does the Tesla do what I think is called taper as it gets more and more charged (other than off at the end)?

Did you get both of your rebates or is the cost beyond eligible?

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@Anonymous 

• Tesla used to include free unlimited supercharging back when they only offered more expensive vehicles, then switched to a 1 yr unlimited at one point, and now I believe you get no free supercharging included.... unless:
  • If you use a referral link from another owner when ordering, both you and they* get 1,666km (1,000 miles) worth of supercharging credited to your accounts
    • *except in BC where it's illegal for the person referring to get anything out of it, but you as the new purchaser using the code still get the credit.  We can thank our vehicle dealers' associations in BC for this wonderfulness.
    • sometimes around end of quarter or end of calendar year, when Tesla is really pushing for numbers, they will include some promo time/miles of supercharging with purchase, provided you take delivery within that quarter.  As an incentive.
• If you don't have any free credits, you typically get charged by the kWh, and I'm sure this must vary by province or even by regions within.  It's typically more $/kWh than it would cost you to charge at home (e.g. through BC Hydro or whatever) to incentivize you to charge at home/work whenever possible and mostly/only use supercharging for road trips or occasional need as they arise.  I think at one point Canada (or parts of Canada) required Tesla to charge by the minute rather than by the electrons, but regulations were recently changed.  Sorry for being vague here but usually it's by the kWh.
• Taper, yes.  Though not as aggressively as some of the competitors.  For example, Ford's agreement with Electrify America (and I believe Electrify Canada) forces the Mach E to throttle down dramatically once it hits 80% SOC (state of charge).  But yes this is normal for any EV (much like how your phone probably charges a lot quicker from 0-50% than from 50-100).
• Rebates for Model Y are unlikely since Tesla does not offer a base model that qualifies for the federal rebate. I think that is probably true for all provinces too.  

[Anonymous]

 @stevenanto : Accent to Tesla!! Wow. That's a switch up in cost and acceleration and comfort.

Can you explain to me how the supercharger thing works. Is it free? Is it free for a limited time? If not free then how much? Is it the same cost at any supercharger? Charge for time or kwh? Does the Tesla do what I think is called taper as it gets more and more charged (other than off at the end)?

Did you get both of your rebates or is the cost beyond eligible?

[stevenanto]

So we actually decided to pull the trigger on Model Y. This is for the wife. Decided it was time for her to make the switch sooner than later as she drives 100km roundtrip for work. He other car was on its last legs 2007 accent. She is definitely excited

[stevenanto]

I agree about the taxes some hoe going back to the government in terms of using electricity. They might impose tax on the companies which will then transfer to the consumer. But that might also mean increase in prices at home too for general electricity use. They gotta make up for their loss somewhere. 

In in terms of the nio battery swap, I think it’s cool but don’t think it’ll really take off, doesn’t seem a simple as a charging station, what happens if one of the bolts is stripped over time,then your car is stuck at the swapping station. 

[will13am]

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@srlawren wrote:

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@stevenanto wrote:

@will13am i beilieve there is a Chinese ev company that does these type of battery swaps. It might be nio or xpeng 

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Yes, it's Nio.  And can be swapped out in as little as 3 mins.

[EDIT: battery swap starts around the 6:30 mark into the video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw

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Impressive, even if this filling station appears more prototype than full on production.  That battery probably has the same weight as a 1980s compact car.  It is no small material handling feat.  I sense the practicality of the battery swap goes away when there are many models, different battery sizes, capacities, etc.  The reviewer did say that a bit of timing was needed to arrive at a time when a fully charged battery was available to swap.  In ON where every undercarriage components sits in a brine bath half of time, it would be fun to see if a swap could be as straightforward as a 3 minute comfort break.  It is with all these other considerations that I cannot see battery swap as a way of filling the tank when EVs on the road reach critical mass.  At this point the early adopters can gloat about how cheap it is for a fill up.  Make no mistake about it, all the taxes on gasoline will transfer over to EV fill ups.