Merits of a Targeted Promotion

[will13am]

This is a worthy topic for discussion given the terms for the latest promotion.  Personally, I think it is more gimmick than anything else.  There is nothing to stop people from getting a new Freedom plan and porting the number over just to get access to this promotion.  Because this backdoor is quite open, why bother?  A non targeted promotion would garner way more new subscribers.  Besides, this alienates some of the existing customer base that may have missed out on the 2016 fall promotion. 

Thoughts?

[Quest]

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@will13am wrote:

This is a worthy topic for discussion given the terms for the latest promotion.  Personally, I think it is more gimmick than anything else.  There is nothing to stop people from getting a new Freedom plan and porting the number over just to get access to this promotion.  Because this backdoor is quite open, why bother?  A non targeted promotion would garner way more new subscribers.  Besides, this alienates some of the existing customer base that may have missed out on the 2016 fall promotion. 

Thoughts?

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@will13am

There are always Merits for a Targeted Promotion called kill the competition.   As you may have known many years ago there were only three National Networks in Canada that virtually monopolized entire wireless industry. There was little competition and prices reflected it as well.

People started having resentment toward the Big Three to such a degree that some of them created their own Virtual Networks in disguise (chatr/Koodo) so people will treat them as legit competition that has nothing to do with the Big Three. 

When for a brief moment came real competition (real PM, Mobilicity and Wind) many people for the sake of principle vented their anger and switched to competitors with inferior networks to demonstrate their anger to Big Three and wow never use their networks again.

 

We know that competition by now has gone with an exception of Freedom Mobile. Since Shaw took over and swipe some spectrum with Rogers they probably never going to gain status of another National Network but from what I see in Shopping Malls somehow, they have been drawing a lot of new customers with a promise of the New Improved LTE Network.

No promotion going to sway those that hate Big Three but for many, wallet and stable connection speak louder than principles. 

So, what PM on behalf of Telus indirectly say: "Be patient Current Users, be patient, when we weaken or destroy our growing competition with a help of Virgin, Chatr, Koodo and Fido you are going to be rewarded as well"

Be patient changes are coming soon. 

[sheytoon]

@xCameron94x

The RAN (towers) is shared, but core networks are separate. RAN sharing was indeed done to save costs and speed up deployment.

Every single Bell tower (FDD HSPA or LTE) in Canada is connected to Telus core, and vice versa. Every tower broadcasts Bell and Telus network code, and connects the corresponding user to the correct core.

[xCameron94x]

@sheytoon would you say its more a network sharing then, to reduce costs? Seeing it as just one big national network, instead of two seperate networks where Bell wont have to build towers out west, and telus to the east?. 

[sheytoon]

We're on the same page for CDMA. For HSPA or LTE, you're wrong. I can explain it technically if you're interested in learning.

My suggestion to you is to ask a Bell or Telus network engineer, or try to manually select Bell as your network when you have a Telus / Koodo / PM SIM.

Here's a Bell SIM that fails roaming on Telus.

[kav2001c]

@sheytoon original question still stands: show a single instance where either Telus or Bell DENY they are roaming on each others networks

Ever

[kav2001c]

@sheytoon which was exactly what we were discussing

That back in time Telus was incapable of building a true national network and therefore signed a roaming agreement with Bell & others (feel free to re-read original post)

The discussion of technical merit is specious as it had nothing to do with previous posts and simply is trying to push through an incorrect argument

To this day BOTH Telus and Bell still refer to roaming and resale agreements

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@sheytoon wrote:

@kav2001c

I'm afraid you're mistaken. That press release is from 2001 and deals specifically with the CDMA network. I don't think you understand how modern networks are designed and architected.

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[paulie]

If the promo is so great, offer it to everyone who wants to join or stay with PublicMobile. Had I convinced two family members months ago to join without the promo (coming from Freedom) they would be mighty cheesed off at me right now.

And what about those that just came from Freedom and now cannot get this promo. Ridiculous !

[david_l]

Threw 

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@paulie wrote:
Sorry folks, but PublicMobile just threw its own community members under the bus with this targeted promo. We get rewards by helping friends, relatives, co-workers to join. We are told join now so you can get the next promo.

But now the promo is only available to Freedom customers ???

I'll be leaving PublicMobile very soon. No amount of rewards is worth ticking off my personal contacts over.

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Threw them under the bus by not offering the promotion them? That's a bit dramatic! I don't think I've ever seen one ad say "join now so you can get the next promo".

[sheytoon]

@kav2001c

I'm afraid you're mistaken. That press release is from 2001 and deals specifically with the CDMA network. I don't think you understand how modern networks are designed and architected.

Please read up on MOCN configuration and RAN sharing for the UMTS/HSPA and LTE networks.

My summary based on my career experience:

https://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Discussions/Network-sharing-explained/td-p/129092

Huawei description:
http://www.huawei.com/ec/static/HW-193401.pdf

 Useful diagram:

[kav2001c]

@Quest & @sheytoon no Quest is not correct (even Bell and Telus clearly refer to "roaming agreements" in their own internal speak

If either of you can find any alternate terminology by all means post it here

eg: ROAMING agreements:

http://www.bce.ca/news-and-media/releases/show/bell-signs-wireless-agreement-with-telus-which-will-s...

[sheytoon]

@Quest is right. There's no roaming between Bell and Telus.

Roaming means using another operator's core network. They share the RAN, but use their own cores across Canada.

[Quest]

@kav2001c

Regarding Telus and Bell it is a little bit more complicated than ... "roaming agreements" ... They are actually Share Towers and some Spectrum. Bell relies on Telus Towers in the East and Telus on Bell Towers in the West.

Telus bought recently some Spectrum that could be used in some parts of Ontario and it is actually expanding its presence in many parts of Ontario.

The sharing agreement is all about savings. Without this agreement I don't know if we could call both of them The National Networks.

[paulie]

Sorry folks, but PublicMobile just threw its own community members under the bus with this targeted promo. We get rewards by helping friends, relatives, co-workers to join. We are told join now so you can get the next promo.

But now the promo is only available to Freedom customers ???

I'll be leaving PublicMobile very soon. No amount of rewards is worth ticking off my personal contacts over.

[david_l]

Existing customers can feel free to  port to Freedom and back then. But I mean really the % of people who will be doing this is small.

[Luddite]

Unfortunately a targeted promotion also draws attention to the competitor.

Lots of people will not realize LTE on Freedom means a new phone with Band 66, or making do with 3G.

Who'd of thought 3G speeds would be "making do". 

[pakmode]

This is a shot across the bow at FM.

They don't want their LTE network to garner traction, especially now that they are releasing new phone. 

Also FM/Wind customers are PM's target niche market and are price-sensitive and more willing to switch. 

[kav2001c]

@zhadj030 same as Public, not listed on website

You can call in though to discuss

[zhadj030]

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@kav2001c wrote:

@smp99 Fido also has an inmarket Freedom targeted plan right now as well

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I keep hearing this but I can't seem to find anything.

@kav2001c

[kav2001c]

@smp99 Fido also has an inmarket Freedom targeted plan right now as well

[smp99]

Merits???   I do find it questionable to only target a single carrier. Question marks fill the air....  Why is this promo so short, only 2 weeks? All recent promos have gone much longer. What does the CRTC have to say about such a targeted promo. Or maybe PM is low on the radar in the grand scheme of Canada's wireless landscape it is a nonissue 

Unless, as many have suggested and I would agree, this is test or precurser to a larger roll-out. It does make sense not to overload the backend system by limitiing the eligible audience. I could see opening or adding other carriers every 2 weeks. If this is the plan, then I would suggest make the plan known so people arn't jumping through hoops trying to get on board.

[kav2001c]

@xCameron94x sorry but facts are being confused by your patriotism

Prior to Shaw purchase, Wind had far larger international brands backing them up

In old days they had way more money available to build infrastructure but parent companies fled Canada after losing billions

Freedom is a more Canadian brand today, but the plug has basically been pulled

Too many people had horrible experiance and will never even try them again (I think that was main impetus for name change; trying to distance themselves from Wind's history)

Really even Telus never built a national network; they signed roaming agreements with other carriers (most notably Bell)

Now you think Shaw can do what Telus could not? (And Telus had far more subs back then than Wind ever had)

Shaw's shareholder will revolt and company would go bankrupt

Same reason Verizon said they had no interest in buying Wind

[xCameron94x]

@kav2001c I disagree with this "new entrants failed" line. Shaw/Freedom just purchased spectrum, which will help with not only recepiton/service for 3G, but I think new phones being added for LTE as well. Shaw sold US based Viawest, which will help fund this. Its also investing more money to help with the network. it is a huge move in the right direction.

This move will at least help a bit in terms of competition. When freedom/wind was on its own, it could have failed, but now that Shaw, which is big out west is in charge, i can see them becoming a legitimate compeitor agaisnt the big 3, which Canada needs

[will13am]

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@kav2001c wrote:

@will13am failures were rampant, even with existing client base (such as myself) back in the fall

And many of us tried to change plans BEFORE the influx of outside attention

BTW something noone else in this thread has mentioned; you guy do realize that Fido also has a special "competitive Freedom plan" in market right now?

Fido also happens to be alot larger than Public

So this could be causing big headaches over at Freedom

 Do you have a link to the Fido promotion?  Back when the 2016 fall promo was on, Fido and virgin had a competing offer going for a short period of time.  Competition is good for consumers.

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[kav2001c]

@will13am failures were rampant, even with existing client base (such as myself) back in the fall

And many of us tried to change plans BEFORE the influx of outside attention

BTW something noone else in this thread has mentioned; you guy do realize that Fido also has a special "competitive Freedom plan" in market right now?

Fido also happens to be alot larger than Public

So this could be causing big headaches over at Freedom

[kav2001c]

@imm1304 you think so? Even with last transfer Freedom (Shaw) have no spectrum, and no coverage whatsoever

At least out west they can try to use the Shaw WiFi network but out east no coverage at all (esp in Toronto area which is by far thier worst zone)

I doubt Shaw will ever expand coverage since capital costs are way too high and they only have like a million users (most of whom are on prepay or on ridiculous old grandfather plans)

You can see it in their marketing strategy, trying desperately to raise ARPU but always failing and needing to give extra promos (the LTE life plan, the extra gigs, and now a 35% discount off list prices)

I think the new entrants failed. Regardless of how much money they tried to spend.

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@imm1304 wrote:

I have not been told anything by PM yet.. but the logic seems to be that PM is pre-emptively targetting their main competitor with this promo. Freedom's parent company is ready to spend serious $$ to develop the network.  

[kav2001c]

@Mana understand

1- Public has never condoned the use of temporary numbers on Freedom as a backdoor way to get the promo

2- This gives Freedom no business whatsoever; the costs far outweigh any perceived value 

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@Mana wrote:

I am pretty sure people will be rushing to freedom to temporary get a number and then port into PM to take advantage of this promo.  Why give freedom any business or make them popular, even for a temporary detour???

[computergeek541]

Sure, openning up this promo plan to anyone would attract more customers, but we have no idea if that's even the main goal.    This plan could just have the sole purpose of taking away customers from Freedom.    Public may have also made this decision based on customer service concerns that could be the result of gaining too many new customers in a short period.

[will13am]

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@SD08 wrote:

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@will13am wrote:

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The Canada day thing could happen.  It is a great opportunity to use a gimmick $150 price.  That would slot in a Canada wide calling feature nicely with 12 gigs of data.  Definitely not for me though.  I would not pay a wooden nickel to change from province wide calling to Canada wide calling.  I don't need it and it sends the wrong message to carriers to continue to try and flog long distance charges in an era where the term should be deprecated. 

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@will13am

I'm on the Fall 2016 promo.  Like you, I wouldn't pay more for Canada-wide calling, but I would give up some of that 12 GB to have Canada-wide instead of provincial calling, since I don't use more than half of that data anyway.   A package of, say, 9 GB + Canada-talk + text for the same price as the Fall promo would be perfect for me.  But then it wouldn't have the catchy 150 number in it.  

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@SD08, I also do not use up all of my 12 gigs of data.  Data usage goes up over time.  I also don't use much of my unlimited calling and text.  I would much prefer to give up some of that for more data or less cost. 

[SD08]

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@will13am wrote:

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The Canada day thing could happen.  It is a great opportunity to use a gimmick $150 price.  That would slot in a Canada wide calling feature nicely with 12 gigs of data.  Definitely not for me though.  I would not pay a wooden nickel to change from province wide calling to Canada wide calling.  I don't need it and it sends the wrong message to carriers to continue to try and flog long distance charges in an era where the term should be deprecated. 

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@will13am

I'm on the Fall 2016 promo.  Like you, I wouldn't pay more for Canada-wide calling, but I would give up some of that 12 GB to have Canada-wide instead of provincial calling, since I don't use more than half of that data anyway.   A package of, say, 9 GB + Canada-talk + text for the same price as the Fall promo would be perfect for me.  But then it wouldn't have the catchy 150 number in it.  

[will13am]

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@Mana wrote:

@will13am I think you are right. 

I am pretty sure people will be rushing to freedom to temporary get a number and then port into PM to take advantage of this promo.  Why give freedom any business or make them popular, even for a temporary detour???

There is really no way of telling how many of these new PM customers were actually long term freedom customers and how many where just visiting to get this deal. 

If we are opening this promo, perhaps going with a wider approach and grab all customers from all carriers, including potential freedom customers would have been a better approach. 

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Count in it.  I bet more customers from elsewhere will migrate to this plan than real Freedom customers. 

This could create a lot of churn with the existing customer base.  Existing customers can port to Freedom and then port back in.  Who knows, maybe Freedom would offer some sort of incentive like a free SIM card for new customers.  All it would cost is a couple of days of service with Freedom and abandonment of the existing PM account. Churning the existing customer base can be an unintended consquence.  D'oh!

BTW, I don't totally buy the keep the sale small so as to not overwhelm the resources.  Existing accounts could switch to this plan with a simple future dated plan switch.  This should not strain anything and is not worse than churn.