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mynewhome · ‎05-29-2019

anyone been succesful in reducing fine in Toronto? The judge implied there are allowances for this.

TheGx · ‎06-18-2019

@dabr I hope change will happen too by exposing what is wrong, hopefully you are right about progressive advances in society, you have alot a faith in society in general - I used to have faith in the government before too and used to vote conservative. Anyways, time will tell, so good luck to you too.

dabr · ‎06-17-2019

@TheGx wrote:
@dabr Be assured I don't apply any broad brushes to any groups pf people including the govenment, I speak from my own persona observation and experiences, so what you say is untrue is actually the truth as I've witnessed it. To be able to state such is because I've had countless dealings with the police and government and by my count the majority are them are not good people just trying to do their jobs - the recent lawsuits regarding abuse to female officers in the rcmp and military and calgary police and even political interns in states and canada certainly don't suggest it's only a few bad apples. In fact it suggests what we all know is true, there is a toxic culture of abuse and silence within all police forces worldwide, and this the norm not the exception. Anyone can search the internet and news to confirm this, and it's not just being overblown, it's that it's been covered up more before the age of cell phone carmeras and internet.

Before anyone thinks I'm wrong, consider that the blind belief that all cops are good is just another broad brush generalization too that many people who have never been arested cling hopefully to - it's the ones who get arrested and who have been held against their will that have the best understanding of exactly how many of the police and government they've dealt with are good or bad. Those who have never been arrested don't have the ability to tell whether most cops are good or not because they've never been put into the situation where they're at the mercy of the police - they just don't know the truth yet.

@TheGx Sorry to hear that you've had unpleasant interactions when dealing with government or the police, I can see why that would lead to some negative impressions about them. Yes there are some very disturbing responses by police captured on cell phone videos, but like I said earlier they should always be held to account. However, I still believe these people represent a minority, unfortunately for you, you might have had the bad luck in dealing with more of them than would be normal. Also agree about what some of the female officers have reported and the culture that is in place at these organisations. Unfortunately, just as in society at large, change is always difficult. We all get accustomed to doing things a certain way and resent when things change and sometimes feel threatened (unnecessarily mostly). My guess is like all other progressive advances, these things will eventually also become less part of that culture, obviously changes take time. But bringing attention and calling it out is the right thing to do of course. That's how change will, hopefully, happen.

On the whole people working anywhere are just like society at large, a mix of reasonable (majority), and not so reasonable. Anyway, I wish you better luck in any future dealings with them.

TheGx · ‎06-17-2019

@dabr Be assured I don't apply any broad brushes to any groups pf people including the govenment, I speak from my own persona observation and experiences, so what you say is untrue is actually the truth as I've witnessed it. To be able to state such is because I've had countless dealings with the police and government and by my count the majority are them are not good people just trying to do their jobs - the recent lawsuits regarding abuse to female officers in the rcmp and military and calgary police and even political interns in states and canada certainly don't suggest it's only a few bad apples. In fact it suggests what we all know is true, there is a toxic culture of abuse and silence within all police forces worldwide, and this the norm not the exception. Anyone can search the internet and news to confirm this, and it's not just being overblown, it's that it's been covered up more before the age of cell phone carmeras and internet.

Before anyone thinks I'm wrong, consider that the blind belief that all cops are good is just another broad brush generalization too that many people who have never been arested cling hopefully to - it's the ones who get arrested and who have been held against their will that have the best understanding of exactly how many of the police and government they've dealt with are good or bad. Those who have never been arrested don't have the ability to tell whether most cops are good or not because they've never been put into the situation where they're at the mercy of the police - they just don't know the truth yet.

dabr · ‎06-14-2019

@TheGx Your link to Libertarian Party and reference to Ayn Rand work at least explains to me where you're coming from, although I guess I should have, perhaps, already surmised that. Sorry, not really interested in reading Ayn Rand, heard enough about her particular philisopy and outlook and find it too self-centred.

There are a lot points you have covered in all your posts here, too many to respond to, so going to just respond to a few I think important.

I agree with you that government bureacracy could be streamlined, definietly plenty of room to reduce regulations, reducing size of government and creating efficiencies are always needed. Deregulating redundant and unnecssary red tape and rules would be a good start. Making things as simple as possible should be a no brainer, but somehow all governments (whilst trying to improve things) end up complicating things further.

As to income tax vs consumption tax, personally I prefer that graduated income tax model (that doesn't mean it can't be improved, maybe less brackets). Generally agree about consumption tax should be on the more harmful aspects of goods and services but as always, the devil is in the details. However, I don't believe you can achieve the level of security and services that benefits the majority of the population without mandatory income tax. Hospitals, schools, roads, police, military etc. all require vast amounts of money and human resources which cannot be funded through consumption taxes alone. Education and healthcare should not be a privilege reserved only for the wealthy as in the past.

As to your posts suggesting that "most police officers are pigs and bullies" is absolutely untrue. Most police officers are just trying to do their jobs as best as they can under, sometimes, extremely stressful and difficult circumstances. Of course, there are exceptions (as in broader society), when a small number don't follow the rules and they should be dealt with properly and held to account. But just to generally apply a broad brush to any groups of people to me is always really unfair and can lead to dangerous outcomes.

Anyway, I think @Anonymous has already made most of the points much better than I can and so I'll just agree to disagree with you on these points and leave it at that.

Anonymous · ‎06-14-2019

@TheGx

Evidently I'm not writing clearly enough in that nuances that I think I'm saying are not being picked up. Repeatedly throughout this entertaining thread my nuances are being missed and then I try to explain it but then I have to get wordier and then it goes tl;dr...etc

So I'm done.

Cheers

TheGx · ‎06-14-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx
You can't be saying pay per use on one hand and then talk about insurance on the other. Insurance is very similar to paying taxes. If you don't pay the premiums then you have no coverage. Dead again. Or at least broke. It would be my opinion and perception that far more civilized countries have public health care. But I don't have stats.

Oh so you're in the private health care delivery business? Do tell. Seriously curious.

Rights and freedoms...for slave owners. Uh huh.

I say the shoot me in response to your revolution thought.

I am not ok with you not paying your fair share.

Those people of similar ideals then have kids. The kids don't subscribe to your utopia and rebel as kids do and just take what they can get for nothing. They're getting a nice free ride. Why would they gravitate away? What do you do?

Now talking about taxation methods I don't pretend to have all the answers. Just like all my writings all this time. I do often wonder about consumption taxes though. No one likes income tax. But it's what we have.

I support consumption tax, but it has to be on things that are not nessecities to human life, like not taxing air or water but taxing sugar or trans fats etc. At least it's a reasonable choice to let people choose to consume or not consume, instead of the current choice of earn income or not earn income.

I don't work in the insurance or health care industries, there's no need for you to be sarcastic and assume I am even though no where in my posts did I ever claim to be. I've lived in other countries where private insurance is common, I've lived in China and Hong Kong and Singapore, I've tried enough other systems to know what I like and to form an opinion on what system I support and you have confidence that my health care needs will be met if needed.

Slave owners? You're the one dictating that others have to do want everyone else does or else face consequences like leaving your society, while I say let them choose for themselves without any pressure from you or others - your system sounds more like a form of slavery than mine, at least mine has more free choice. Isn't income tax more like slavery than not taxing income, you want to take what others have worked for through a tax on their income/production, sounds like a lesser form of slavery to me than letting people keep what they've worked for.

Is your slave owner comment a shot at the american revolution? Because the american revolution was about taxes not slaves, the american civil war is more about slaves. Or you want to criticize something about america not having freedom ideals when they had slaves at the same time? Well if you'd read history the same freedoms ideals were eventually what freed the slaves in america, just because it didn't happen at right away does not mean the ideals were not there.

How am I not paying my fair share when I already said I support pay per use? What don't you understand about that? I want to pay for myself, I don't want to pay for you or anyone else, but you want me to pay for you me and everyone too and for everyone else to do the same or force them to.

Your shoot me comment is not resonable even in response to my revolution comment, because you assume every revolution to be bloody - history has a few example of unviolent revolutions, and even if you can't find them I never mentioned any violence anyways.

Kids will be dependant on others to pay for them as always, when their family stops paying for them they'll have to pay on their own - is that so hard to understand?

Why do you assume things I didn't post? Such as I work in private health care or that revolutions mean shooting you? Assuming things that aren't true makes no sense.

TheGx · ‎06-14-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx wrote:
@dabr Of course, I didn't mean you when talked about shaming, I was talking about @Anonymous and others like that. We obviously don't agree, I don't have problem with that. On your point about free speach, I of course support it without the caveats, even @Anonymous can ridicule and say whatever he wants respecfully or not - I just don't agree with ridiculing/shaming to get a point across.

@TheGx
So...uh...your first post on this thread...you call the police pigs and everybody else sheep. That's respectful? That's not ridiculing? That's not shaming?
If you're gonna dish it, then you gotta be able to take it.

No it's not, saying the truth is not disrespecful or ridiculing, it's simpling saying what's true - most police are pigs and bullies maybe not all but the media is full of cell phone camera proof for all that believe they're never wrong or that they're something to be worshiped like above human instead of them being just human like the rest of us.

You want people to do what you want no matter if they like it or not just because you say they have to or they have to be punished or leave your society - yeah that sounds like sheep to me, it's not shaming to say so.

I gotta take it to dish it? That sounds childish like he started it first or I know you are but what am I? I don't find any value in any of your arguments on this issue at at, read your own posts and see for yourself.

TheGx · ‎06-14-2019

@dabr wrote:
would replace the system we have now firstly by replacing the income generated by income taxes with something else, then slowly replace the income generated by things like red light cameras and photo radar with other things too - and at the same time reduce government waste by cutting down on budgets which would in turn reduce the need for taxes such as income tax and photo radar etc. Until there is change, I won't change my opinion until change occurs and if it is then proven not to work - only then would I consider changing my opinion on total freedom being the best public policy.

@TheGx So to me that's interesting that you speak about 'replacing income taxes etc' with something else...what exactly would that something else be, and what if in your 'new system' others object to the new form of something else? Just curious what this 'something else' is?

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@dabr The example I am thinking about is not mine it's just a ideal, like the golden rule or ten commandments, simply put the ideal is to deregulate - this ideal is a Libertarian ideal from the book Atlas Shruged by Ayn Rand. By deregualting the cost of governing automatically decreases because for less expenses associated with regulating and prosecuting the breaking of rules, similar to how ending the prohibition of cannibis and alcohol and gambling etc reduces the cost of governing - deregulation can be applied to everthing, I won't bother arguing every possible outcome, but history shows degulation works and common sense and logic supports this too as the examples of gambling and drugs being deregulated already has enough positive results to prove it.

Degulation and cutting expenditures and reducing the size of government at every level is how I support reducing the costs of governing, as for replacing the income generated through income taxes - I support taxing things that harm the environment or harm health or taxing usage of things, that way it taxing things that the government wants to reduce anyways and lets people choose whether to continue using the taxed things or not. An example is taxes on unhealthy products such as pop etc or gas etc. Either way I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a start in the right direction of letting people choose what taxes to pay and not pay, for example if cars are taxed then I can choose to not drive to avoid the tax - and this encourages environmental protection which most governments claim they support.

Taxing income just doesn't make sense, because it's discourages the generation of more income which should be everybodies right to pursue higher incomes - instead of discouraging people for being successful at earning money, the government should be discouraging pollution etc.

Anyways, maybe the government will have less money or more, but that doesn't matter because encouraging freedom is the main thing - so no I don't have numbers to argue what effect this or that will have, but just like any idea those problems will be solved through trial and error, and that's nothing to worry about because it's not like our goverments don't make enough errors and excuses now as it is anyways.

I encourage anyone to go to the Libertarian Party of Canada website for more details of this ideal:

www.libertarian.ca

Anonymous · ‎06-13-2019

@TheGx

You can't be saying pay per use on one hand and then talk about insurance on the other. Insurance is very similar to paying taxes. If you don't pay the premiums then you have no coverage. Dead again. Or at least broke. It would be my opinion and perception that far more civilized countries have public health care. But I don't have stats.

Oh so you're in the private health care delivery business? Do tell. Seriously curious.

Rights and freedoms...for slave owners. Uh huh.

I say the shoot me in response to your revolution thought.

I am not ok with you not paying your fair share.

Those people of similar ideals then have kids. The kids don't subscribe to your utopia and rebel as kids do and just take what they can get for nothing. They're getting a nice free ride. Why would they gravitate away? What do you do?

Now talking about taxation methods I don't pretend to have all the answers. Just like all my writings all this time. I do often wonder about consumption taxes though. No one likes income tax. But it's what we have.

dabr · ‎06-13-2019

would replace the system we have now firstly by replacing the income generated by income taxes with something else, then slowly replace the income generated by things like red light cameras and photo radar with other things too - and at the same time reduce government waste by cutting down on budgets which would in turn reduce the need for taxes such as income tax and photo radar etc. Until there is change, I won't change my opinion until change occurs and if it is then proven not to work - only then would I consider changing my opinion on total freedom being the best public policy.

@TheGx So to me that's interesting that you speak about 'replacing income taxes etc' with something else...what exactly would that something else be, and what if in your 'new system' others object to the new form of something else? Just curious what this 'something else' is?

TheGx · ‎06-13-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx
First of all...it's not just me.

I completely object to your intentions of being a freeloader.

If not a freeloader then completely deluded as to how much a pure pay per use system would cost you. Or if things you need would even be available to you due to it not being profitable for those supplying them.

I'll go back to the health system. Is any given hospital busy the whole time they're open? No. But we all agree to pay for it to be open in that chance that we need it. Your magical system would mean that for you to need medical attention when you need it...everybody that works there would have to be called in, the lights turned on, the machines turned on, the heat turned on etc. That is utterly preposterous. Then how much do you suppose your pay as you go cost would be to do all that? Astronomical. You'd be busted all for a broken finger. Oh you don't have the cash to pay for it? Tough tooties. Get out. Or they would simply ask ahead of time before doing all that. So now you're dead because the broken finger got infected. Enjoy being dead. But hey! You weren't "forced" to pay a dime! You win. Oh wait. Jeez. Seriously?

The example of the American revolution. Sounds like you have a love-on for the states. Maybe you should move there. So how 'bout them taxes there? Oh look. They have taxes too. Sure they don't go to the crown but everybody has Uncle Sam staring them down if they don't pay their share. Like I said...when and if that revolution comes...line me up and shoot me. Oh well.

I've already covered that there are people that manage to live off the grid. It's a meagre existence if that's what you like. Have at it. So then others come and ask if they can join you. Do you just let 'em walk in? Do you not think that some of them won't do their fair share of the work? So they don't. What do you do? Just let them be free taking all of your resources for nothing? Not a chance! You WILL "force" them one way or the other to share. Then they're free to say yeah never mind I'm outta here. So you get a revolving line of people that come and go leaching off your utopian society until they can't. Why? Because your magical society "forces" compliance that's why. Think it through man.

I'm not scared of anything. I am of zero significance to this society we're sharing existence in. I have no actual power to "force" you to do anything. The vast majority of people that happen to go along with the society we've decided to keep going do however.

Again with the choosing to pay. We've already established that there WILL be people that will choose NOT to pay.

I agree with you that our current system where a group of elected members that have a majority effectively become a benevolent dictatorship. Do you vote? Have you voted to change any voting system? I do. I have. The majority don't agree with me. Oh well. Carry on.

I have already said that if a bunch leave and stop paying taxes then have at it. Don't care. See ya. For as long as you wish to continue to live in THIS society and use its benefits then you will need to pay your fair share. It simply can not function without everybody agreeing to pay their fair share. Do you want it to function? Or do you want it all to collapse into an anarchic, free for all, lawless, orderless, every person for themselves non-society?

Have that revolution. What you seem to be talking about is the theoretical utopia of a purely communistic society. Not the b@st@rdized ones that emerged. A truly communistic system.

Stratas are a microcosm of the larger society we live in. It's a community of people that agree with how to spend the money that everybody agrees to pay in to. If you don't agree to pay into it then you get removed. Not unlike property taxes either. It's nothing like a dictatorship. This will be how your magical society will deal with its freeloaders too. It's a pretty pure democratic system. Unlike our abused parliamentary system with the over-running of parties.

I'm saying that if you wish to live in this society then you need to pay your share of the upkeep. If not, you do have the freedom to leave.
Alternatively...if enough of you wish to change it all up then you can. Either by revolution or using the system as it is. Help yourself. Depending on what you wish to replace this society with maybe I would even join you. And pay my share. Because that's the right thing to do.

@Anonymous Do I vote? Yeah, I do.

How am I a freeloader? I already said pay per use.

I'm deluded? I already gave you examples of how health care works better privatized with private insurance, in fact private industry does better than government in every case worldwide, that's why there are private hospitals in existence - they make money and survive on their own without free taxpayer dollars.

I have no idea what things would cost? I do know, that's why I support private industry paying for it and not my tax dollars? You on the other hand don't know what it costs and that's why you're happy with our tax dollars paying for it.

I'd be broke and dead because of a broken finger? You're the one deluded, I already told you that private insurance that I could chose or chose not to buy would pay for my medical cost as pay per use.

Love on for the states? Settle down, I do love the ideals that the american revolution was fought for inculding the ideals that formed the bill of rights and constitution and is the originator of all the rights and freedoms we all including you enjoy today, so if you can't see that you owe all your rights and freedoms to the american freedom fighters of the american revolution - keep being ignorant.

Taxes in the states? Exactly. You've just pointed out how an ideal and free society like the america during the time of the revoultion can become the worst place to live in now - it's because of people like you that america has sunk to the facist tax hell it is now, because people like you are happy to blindly pay their taxes and not hold the government accountable for being ineffective and inefficient. In fact, american citizens kept voting in the pigs that first introduced taxes to america, so like you they choose to allow themsleves to keep having their taxes increased.

Line you up and shoot you? You're the only one that keeps mentioning the use of force, I only said to leave people alone, but you keep trying to equate letting people choose to them shooting you.

It's not just you? I agree, most are just as ignorant as you as to the true value and worth of freedom.

We establish there will be people who choose not to pay, what we don't agree on is that you want to force them to pay somehow through jail or seizing their money etc, or by shaming and ridiculing them just like what you're doing to me. If you were really ok with me and others opinion about not paying taxes, you could point out that you'll keep paying whether we pay or not - end of discussion.

How would we handle others joining us? The same way any other person does, people of similar ideals naturally gravitate to each other and those that araen't similar will graviate away - unless people like you force otherwise.

I would replace the system we have now firstly by replacing the income generated by income taxes with something else, then slowly replace the income generated by things like red light cameras and photo radar with other things too - and at the same time reduce government waste by cutting down on budgets which would in turn reduce the need for taxes such as income tax and photo radar etc. Until there is change, I won't change my opinion until change occurs and if it is then proven not to work - only then would I consider changing my opinion on total freedom being the best public policy.

Anonymous · ‎06-13-2019

@TheGx wrote:
@dabr Of course, I didn't mean you when talked about shaming, I was talking about @Anonymous and others like that. We obviously don't agree, I don't have problem with that. On your point about free speach, I of course support it without the caveats, even @Anonymous can ridicule and say whatever he wants respecfully or not - I just don't agree with ridiculing/shaming to get a point across.

@TheGx

So...uh...your first post on this thread...you call the police pigs and everybody else sheep. That's respectful? That's not ridiculing? That's not shaming?

If you're gonna dish it, then you gotta be able to take it.

TheGx · ‎06-13-2019

@dabr Of course, I didn't mean you when talked about shaming, I was talking about @Anonymous and others like that. We obviously don't agree, I don't have problem with that. On your point about free speach, I of course support it without the caveats, even @Anonymous can ridicule and say whatever he wants respecfully or not - I just don't agree with ridiculing/shaming to get a point across.

Anonymous · ‎06-13-2019

@TheGx

I'll just quickly add seeing your other post...

METHODS of taxation are a whole. 'Nother. Topic.

I do not believe that a pay as you go system would work for a large society.

Anonymous · ‎06-13-2019

@TheGx

First of all...it's not just me.

I completely object to your intentions of being a freeloader.

If not a freeloader then completely deluded as to how much a pure pay per use system would cost you. Or if things you need would even be available to you due to it not being profitable for those supplying them.

I'll go back to the health system. Is any given hospital busy the whole time they're open? No. But we all agree to pay for it to be open in that chance that we need it. Your magical system would mean that for you to need medical attention when you need it...everybody that works there would have to be called in, the lights turned on, the machines turned on, the heat turned on etc. That is utterly preposterous. Then how much do you suppose your pay as you go cost would be to do all that? Astronomical. You'd be busted all for a broken finger. Oh you don't have the cash to pay for it? Tough tooties. Get out. Or they would simply ask ahead of time before doing all that. So now you're dead because the broken finger got infected. Enjoy being dead. But hey! You weren't "forced" to pay a dime! You win. Oh wait. Jeez. Seriously?

The example of the American revolution. Sounds like you have a love-on for the states. Maybe you should move there. So how 'bout them taxes there? Oh look. They have taxes too. Sure they don't go to the crown but everybody has Uncle Sam staring them down if they don't pay their share. Like I said...when and if that revolution comes...line me up and shoot me. Oh well.

I've already covered that there are people that manage to live off the grid. It's a meagre existence if that's what you like. Have at it. So then others come and ask if they can join you. Do you just let 'em walk in? Do you not think that some of them won't do their fair share of the work? So they don't. What do you do? Just let them be free taking all of your resources for nothing? Not a chance! You WILL "force" them one way or the other to share. Then they're free to say yeah never mind I'm outta here. So you get a revolving line of people that come and go leaching off your utopian society until they can't. Why? Because your magical society "forces" compliance that's why. Think it through man.

I'm not scared of anything. I am of zero significance to this society we're sharing existence in. I have no actual power to "force" you to do anything. The vast majority of people that happen to go along with the society we've decided to keep going do however.

Again with the choosing to pay. We've already established that there WILL be people that will choose NOT to pay.

I agree with you that our current system where a group of elected members that have a majority effectively become a benevolent dictatorship. Do you vote? Have you voted to change any voting system? I do. I have. The majority don't agree with me. Oh well. Carry on.

I have already said that if a bunch leave and stop paying taxes then have at it. Don't care. See ya. For as long as you wish to continue to live in THIS society and use its benefits then you will need to pay your fair share. It simply can not function without everybody agreeing to pay their fair share. Do you want it to function? Or do you want it all to collapse into an anarchic, free for all, lawless, orderless, every person for themselves non-society?

Have that revolution. What you seem to be talking about is the theoretical utopia of a purely communistic society. Not the b@st@rdized ones that emerged. A truly communistic system.

Stratas are a microcosm of the larger society we live in. It's a community of people that agree with how to spend the money that everybody agrees to pay in to. If you don't agree to pay into it then you get removed. Not unlike property taxes either. It's nothing like a dictatorship. This will be how your magical society will deal with its freeloaders too. It's a pretty pure democratic system. Unlike our abused parliamentary system with the over-running of parties.

I'm saying that if you wish to live in this society then you need to pay your share of the upkeep. If not, you do have the freedom to leave.
Alternatively...if enough of you wish to change it all up then you can. Either by revolution or using the system as it is. Help yourself. Depending on what you wish to replace this society with maybe I would even join you. And pay my share. Because that's the right thing to do.

dabr · ‎06-13-2019

@TheGx wrote:
@dabr Yeah, red light cameras get me pretty upset. I agree there are rules everywhere, even from birth as you've said from our parents, but in each case we have the choice to follow the rules or not - if we don't have the choice it must be called for what it is: force. That's my point whether you believe the rules are right or wrong, we still have to see the truth for what it is, and that is that we don't have a choice whether to pay taxes because we are forced to.

I totally agree with your example of unformailized taxes from the kings henchmen, there are always people trying to tax othes, and this example of yours shows what taxes really are boiled down to their simplest form - the formal taxes we see today are just a prettier nicer version of the henchmen from your example, modern governments make laws and propaganda to hide the ugly truth of what taxes really are so that the paying of taxes becomes normailzed and more palatable and accepted.

The trade off of some or all of our individual freedoms as you've pointed out, is acceptable to you and many others, but that should not mean that others should be forced to accept it as well - that's all I'm saying, I don't shame you for your choice to accept taxes and so others should't try to force their opinion on me either. Being part of society or a larger unit as you say, should still be a matter of free choice instead of force, in my opinion.

I totally agree that government waste should be exposed and fixed too.

Freedom may not be practical and it may be a free for all as you say, but it's still the freedom to choose versus being forced, and some people rather have the unpractical and a free for all rather than being forced.

I totally understand how you and others don't think how not having taxes wouldn't be practical, I just don't agree and I think not having taxes especially income taxes could work out better than what we have now. Instead of a free for all, I just see a government that would be forced to be more effective and efficient because they couldn't just tax their way out of every problem/issue they face. The world could still be well ordered and free at the same time, and I don't believe that order and freedom have to sacrificed for each other, I don't think people have to be forced to be orderly - many people would simply choose to be orderly of their own free will and live amongst other who choose to be orderly too, without the need to force others to do the same.

How free is anyone really? That's up to us to decide how free we really want to be.

It looks like my response disappeared, so will try again. I don't want to shame you or anyone else for having a different point of view. You are perfectly entiltled to have your thoughts, just as others are entitled to disagree. That's the beauty of freedom of speech (with some caveats, of course). After all it's the free exchange of ideas and thougths (respectfully done) that may lead to improvements for better systems for society as a whole.

But I believe there never will be (practicality being one reason) complete freedom, no matter how much we may wish it. Yes I'm mostly okay having a society that can benefit as many people as possible for the the loss of some freedoms. Thats just my opinion, of course.

TheGx · ‎06-13-2019

@dabr Yeah, red light cameras get me pretty upset. I agree there are rules everywhere, even from birth as you've said from our parents, but in each case we have the choice to follow the rules or not - if we don't have the choice it must be called for what it is: force. That's my point whether you believe the rules are right or wrong, we still have to see the truth for what it is, and that is that we don't have a choice whether to pay taxes because we are forced to.

I totally agree with your example of unformailized taxes from the kings henchmen, there are always people trying to tax othes, and this example of yours shows what taxes really are boiled down to their simplest form - the formal taxes we see today are just a prettier nicer version of the henchmen from your example, modern governments make laws and propaganda to hide the ugly truth of what taxes really are so that the paying of taxes becomes normailzed and more palatable and accepted.

The trade off of some or all of our individual freedoms as you've pointed out, is acceptable to you and many others, but that should not mean that others should be forced to accept it as well - that's all I'm saying, I don't shame you for your choice to accept taxes and so others should't try to force their opinion on me either. Being part of society or a larger unit as you say, should still be a matter of free choice instead of force, in my opinion.

I totally agree that government waste should be exposed and fixed too.

Freedom may not be practical and it may be a free for all as you say, but it's still the freedom to choose versus being forced, and some people rather have the unpractical and a free for all rather than being forced.

I totally understand how you and others don't think how not having taxes wouldn't be practical, I just don't agree and I think not having taxes especially income taxes could work out better than what we have now. Instead of a free for all, I just see a government that would be forced to be more effective and efficient because they couldn't just tax their way out of every problem/issue they face. The world could still be well ordered and free at the same time, and I don't believe that order and freedom have to sacrificed for each other, I don't think people have to be forced to be orderly - many people would simply choose to be orderly of their own free will and live amongst other who choose to be orderly too, without the need to force others to do the same.

How free is anyone really? That's up to us to decide how free we really want to be.

dabr · ‎06-13-2019

@TheGx wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx
Well...have your revolution and line me up and shoot me and dump me in the ocean. Oh but wait. You gotta pay for all those guns and ammo. How is your merry band of non-taxpayers gonna pay for that? Just each yourself "choosing" to buy what you need or you all as a group being then able to pool your money together. But then wait again...who decides what to get and how much each person should pay. Oh but you say each person can choose to pay what they wish. So the guy that "chooses" not to pay anything will be allowed to have and use the things he needs? Or he is welcome to use his home-made sling-shot and have at it. Not bl@@dy likely.
Anyway...not gonna happen so I'm not worried.

I put the word - force - into quotes to use your terminology. It's not my terminology.

Again...there are lots of things that the government pays for that I have no need for. Then there are fellow citizens on the other side of this governed mass that derive no benefit from things that I do get benefit from. The idea is that it all balances out.

I agree with you about colonizing. Although that's old news now. Now it's more about needing resources of whatever nature. ie. oil, water, timber, minerals. Y'know...that stuff to make stuff with.

So your magical society will be world-wide? ALL of the people will play along in your magical society? I think the "too simple" is the other way around. I don't think you're thinking it through.

Unless you just want to return to the caves and maybe live to 40 and hunt with home-made weapons and cook over an open fire...stuff needs to be paid for. People need to decide who will be the decision makers and how much to pay in the kitty to pay for all the things that are needed in ANY society.

I'll bring it back again...it's a whole lot like living in a modern shared-living community. What is called strata in BC. It can be a house on a lot, part of a house or an apartment in a building. The shared things need to be paid for. You are "forced" to pay into that kitty or you get kicked out. It's really the same concept. Things. Need. To be. Paid. For.
@Anonymous Call it what you want, make all the excuses and reasons you want, be as sarcastic as you want - all you're doing is shaming and bullying others into doing what you want because you want things paid for by forcing others to pitch in.

Look at any revolution in history and you can quickly separate those that bully and shame others into falling in line, and those that allow others to choose whether to join or not - nazi germany and communist china are examples of not telling people to either do what they tell you or get kicked out as you call it.

An example of a free revolution is the american revolution where people could choose to help revolt agaist taxes or not, who paid for that revolution? It was paid for by the people who participated, the ones that revolted paid for their war themselves and won - read some history and you'll see that america was created by a merry band of non-taxpayers who paid for guns/ammo/etc all by themselves of their own free choosing. All your sarcasm is similar to all those who didn't believe in the american revolution and didn't think a merry band of freedom fighters stood a chance agaist the british empire - the british didn't think it was bloody likely either that anyone would dare not pay their forced taxes and not dare to be kicked out of the british empire. The british didn't think the american revolution was gonna happen either and they were not worried either like you.

Was the american revolution a magical society? It was indeed magical because most of the world thought like you and couldn't imagine a world without being forced to pay taxes - they couldn't imagine free people could allow free choice on who pays for what services such as all the resources you listed(wood, water, oil, minerals, etc), but it sure worked out for american since they won the revolutionary war and for a time were a magical society where people could not pay taxes and choose for themsleves what to pay for and what not to pay for.

The too simple is for those like you who don't know how to think outside of what the government and society groomed you to think, that chaos will reign if we don't have people like you around to bully and shame us into obedience. British society laughed at the americans just like you laugh thinking nobody can survive without rulers telling us what to do and how to live and that without rulers we'd all be cavemen living in the woods around campfires as you say - but look at how america showed their rulers how free cavemen can live and fight.

You keep saying society this and society that, fine if you choose to live that way, but when you force/shame/bully others into doing the same, that's when you start to go down the same path as all those facists regimes in human history. You're scared people will stop helping you pay for all the nice things you like in society, you're scared that if you let people choose they won't remain in your sociey - well your society isn't so nice when you know people won't stay or pay when you let them choose for themselves, if your society was so great you could let people choose and they'd choose to pay and stay of their own free will.

How's this for a simple concept? You need things to be paid for so you'll resort to force to get what you want, doesn't sound any different than what thieves and bandits say.

Things. Need To. Be. Paid. For. But. Through. Forcing. Others.

You are probably in the majority that agree with forcing others, but a majority dictating to the minority is still a dictatorship, so why don't you stop bullying others to think like you and just be happy with all the others that do think like you - why can't you leave others to their own free thought? I'm not telling others they have to do or think like me or be kicked out of society or be ridiculed, why is it so important for you to do so? If a bunch leave and stop paying taxes and don't use anything in your society, so what? You already said you don't care, so if you don't care then you should stop trying to shame and bully others about it.

Your comment about strata in bc is interesting, since many consider the strata community a dictatirship anyways - all strata condo will look similar, no hanging christmas wreaths on the doors or any other religious symbols or the strata board will go after you etc. If you like strata communities then I can see why you don't like anyone to not fall in line with what you want. But I'm not trying to tell you that you have you live in a strata or pay into any society, you on the other hand are telling me that I have to pay into society and live a ceratin way - so the difference is that you won't leave people alone if they don't do what you expect of them.

Wow...all this from a post titled 'red light camera tickets'. But just how free is anyone really?

Aren't we all bound by some form of rules (written or not) from birth onwards? ie: parents determine what rules their child will follow in order to live as part of a functional family unit. Then that extends further as part of being a larger society which has to work for the majority in order for it to be more equitable. It may be unfair for the minority that may disagree with aim of the majority, but, until we get a better system, it provides a society's citizens with a well orderded and, relatively free, society. Being part of a larger unit (whether family or country) is always going to be trade-off between absolute freedom and a collective responsibility.

You're right that the majority of people don't begrudge paying their fair share of taxes to help provide services for everyone. I just don't see how a free for all would be practical. There has always been some form of taxes, it just wasn't formalised. I believe in the past the ruling monarchs would send their 'henchman' around the country to demand payment to fund their latest wars, latest colonization project or to build the kings' newest castle.

One of the main things, IMO, most people object to is government waste which should always be called out.

TheGx · ‎06-13-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx
Well...have your revolution and line me up and shoot me and dump me in the ocean. Oh but wait. You gotta pay for all those guns and ammo. How is your merry band of non-taxpayers gonna pay for that? Just each yourself "choosing" to buy what you need or you all as a group being then able to pool your money together. But then wait again...who decides what to get and how much each person should pay. Oh but you say each person can choose to pay what they wish. So the guy that "chooses" not to pay anything will be allowed to have and use the things he needs? Or he is welcome to use his home-made sling-shot and have at it. Not bl@@dy likely.
Anyway...not gonna happen so I'm not worried.

I put the word - force - into quotes to use your terminology. It's not my terminology.

Again...there are lots of things that the government pays for that I have no need for. Then there are fellow citizens on the other side of this governed mass that derive no benefit from things that I do get benefit from. The idea is that it all balances out.

I agree with you about colonizing. Although that's old news now. Now it's more about needing resources of whatever nature. ie. oil, water, timber, minerals. Y'know...that stuff to make stuff with.

So your magical society will be world-wide? ALL of the people will play along in your magical society? I think the "too simple" is the other way around. I don't think you're thinking it through.

Unless you just want to return to the caves and maybe live to 40 and hunt with home-made weapons and cook over an open fire...stuff needs to be paid for. People need to decide who will be the decision makers and how much to pay in the kitty to pay for all the things that are needed in ANY society.

I'll bring it back again...it's a whole lot like living in a modern shared-living community. What is called strata in BC. It can be a house on a lot, part of a house or an apartment in a building. The shared things need to be paid for. You are "forced" to pay into that kitty or you get kicked out. It's really the same concept. Things. Need. To be. Paid. For.

@Anonymous Call it what you want, make all the excuses and reasons you want, be as sarcastic as you want - all you're doing is shaming and bullying others into doing what you want because you want things paid for by forcing others to pitch in.

Look at any revolution in history and you can quickly separate those that bully and shame others into falling in line, and those that allow others to choose whether to join or not - nazi germany and communist china are examples of not telling people to either do what they tell you or get kicked out as you call it.

An example of a free revolution is the american revolution where people could choose to help revolt agaist taxes or not, who paid for that revolution? It was paid for by the people who participated, the ones that revolted paid for their war themselves and won - read some history and you'll see that america was created by a merry band of non-taxpayers who paid for guns/ammo/etc all by themselves of their own free choosing. All your sarcasm is similar to all those who didn't believe in the american revolution and didn't think a merry band of freedom fighters stood a chance agaist the british empire - the british didn't think it was bloody likely either that anyone would dare not pay their forced taxes and not dare to be kicked out of the british empire. The british didn't think the american revolution was gonna happen either and they were not worried either like you.

Was the american revolution a magical society? It was indeed magical because most of the world thought like you and couldn't imagine a world without being forced to pay taxes - they couldn't imagine free people could allow free choice on who pays for what services such as all the resources you listed(wood, water, oil, minerals, etc), but it sure worked out for american since they won the revolutionary war and for a time were a magical society where people could not pay taxes and choose for themsleves what to pay for and what not to pay for.

The too simple is for those like you who don't know how to think outside of what the government and society groomed you to think, that chaos will reign if we don't have people like you around to bully and shame us into obedience. British society laughed at the americans just like you laugh thinking nobody can survive without rulers telling us what to do and how to live and that without rulers we'd all be cavemen living in the woods around campfires as you say - but look at how america showed their rulers how free cavemen can live and fight.

You keep saying society this and society that, fine if you choose to live that way, but when you force/shame/bully others into doing the same, that's when you start to go down the same path as all those facists regimes in human history. You're scared people will stop helping you pay for all the nice things you like in society, you're scared that if you let people choose they won't remain in your sociey - well your society isn't so nice when you know people won't stay or pay when you let them choose for themselves, if your society was so great you could let people choose and they'd choose to pay and stay of their own free will.

How's this for a simple concept? You need things to be paid for so you'll resort to force to get what you want, doesn't sound any different than what thieves and bandits say.

Things. Need To. Be. Paid. For. But. Through. Forcing. Others.

You are probably in the majority that agree with forcing others, but a majority dictating to the minority is still a dictatorship, so why don't you stop bullying others to think like you and just be happy with all the others that do think like you - why can't you leave others to their own free thought? I'm not telling others they have to do or think like me or be kicked out of society or be ridiculed, why is it so important for you to do so? If a bunch leave and stop paying taxes and don't use anything in your society, so what? You already said you don't care, so if you don't care then you should stop trying to shame and bully others about it.

Your comment about strata in bc is interesting, since many consider the strata community a dictatirship anyways - all strata condo will look similar, no hanging christmas wreaths on the doors or any other religious symbols or the strata board will go after you etc. If you like strata communities then I can see why you don't like anyone to not fall in line with what you want. But I'm not trying to tell you that you have you live in a strata or pay into any society, you on the other hand are telling me that I have to pay into society and live a ceratin way - so the difference is that you won't leave people alone if they don't do what you expect of them.

Anonymous · ‎06-12-2019

@TheGx

Well...have your revolution and line me up and shoot me and dump me in the ocean. Oh but wait. You gotta pay for all those guns and ammo. How is your merry band of non-taxpayers gonna pay for that? Just each yourself "choosing" to buy what you need or you all as a group being then able to pool your money together. But then wait again...who decides what to get and how much each person should pay. Oh but you say each person can choose to pay what they wish. So the guy that "chooses" not to pay anything will be allowed to have and use the things he needs? Or he is welcome to use his home-made sling-shot and have at it. Not bl@@dy likely.

Anyway...not gonna happen so I'm not worried.

I put the word - force - into quotes to use your terminology. It's not my terminology.

Again...there are lots of things that the government pays for that I have no need for. Then there are fellow citizens on the other side of this governed mass that derive no benefit from things that I do get benefit from. The idea is that it all balances out.

I agree with you about colonizing. Although that's old news now. Now it's more about needing resources of whatever nature. ie. oil, water, timber, minerals. Y'know...that stuff to make stuff with.

So your magical society will be world-wide? ALL of the people will play along in your magical society? I think the "too simple" is the other way around. I don't think you're thinking it through.

Unless you just want to return to the caves and maybe live to 40 and hunt with home-made weapons and cook over an open fire...stuff needs to be paid for. People need to decide who will be the decision makers and how much to pay in the kitty to pay for all the things that are needed in ANY society.

I'll bring it back again...it's a whole lot like living in a modern shared-living community. What is called strata in BC. It can be a house on a lot, part of a house or an apartment in a building. The shared things need to be paid for. You are "forced" to pay into that kitty or you get kicked out. It's really the same concept. Things. Need. To be. Paid. For.

TheGx · ‎06-12-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx
Don't care about the US. We're in Canada. Besides, that "civilized" society had a whole freaking war over keeping other people enslaved. Yeah. Civilized.

I don't settle. I'm fine to pay in to a system that provides benefits like nice roads and hospitals (as our two shining examples continue). I think it's reasonable to "force" everybody else to pay their fair share too if I'm having to pay.

Those insurance providers likely don't pay for the whole hospital and staff and nurses and doctors and equipment etc. The states is its own special case because they're a capitalist/corporatist backwater. But much of other civilized countries have publically paid health systems. That visitor might pay some fees and expenses as decided by the facility but the visitor doesn't pay for everything that exists having to do with that facility. Land, utilities, construction, maintenance, wages etc.

You do know that insurance is shared cost right? Oh look...the same as publicly provided services. And with a public system, the "rates" are much lower because the costs are spread out over more people.

You keep mentioning taxes didn't always exist. Once people starting banding together into larger groups, things had to be paid for that they couldn't otherwise do for themselves. Taxes. Be they rents, tolls, charges, fees, tithes etc. If you wished to be a part of that larger grouping of people then you had to ("forced to") pay into the pot. Otherwise...get lost. Go live on an island for all we care. So some did. Then others joined them. Then they had to be organized about how to pay for it all. Oh look. Taxes. Again.

I like having systems and services available to me when needed. My own disaster could happen at any time. Otherwise I'm dead. Yeah I'll pay for the upkeep of that system and service. Even though I may never use it. That really is the same as insurance...just cheaper.

As for welfare recipients...I think with all the wealth concentrated in so few hands that a good chunk of that wealth should be extracted so that all of the not so wealthy, vast majority of the rest of us could live with some dignity by having a basic income. Welfare is beneath dignified. But it's what we currently have available for the not so fortunate. Have you no compassion for your fellow humans? Or are you really only just out for #1?

Nobody expects the nicest roads and nicest hospitals. We would all want them to not destroy our cars and to be run efficiently with the dollars they get. I like knowing that I can just walk into a hospital with whatever ails me and get medical attention without going broke and selling my assets or worse being turned away because I have nothing to pay for it. No thanks.

It's not force. It's voluntarily agreeing to pay into the pot for systems and services that I can use or that my fellow humans need. You're always "free" to leave and go start your own system elsewhere. You can kill off or banish those that become freeloaders all you want. But wait...your magical society still needs to pay for stuff and who's payin' and how? All of you - by some form of taxation - by "force".

@Anonymous You say it's not force, then you say it's reasonable to force people to pay for what you want, that's not reasonable at all - the fact that you tell people to get lost if they don't agree with you is already not reasonable.

You enjoy this society that forces people to pay, fine - but that doesn't make others that don't enjoy being forced to pay or get lost wrong either. Your get lost attitude can be used both ways too, why don't all you people that like to force and impose there way on others get lost instead of colonizing the world? We both know the answer why you won't - you need others to pay or you 's won't have enough money to pay for all the things you want, that why you force people instead of leaving them alone, because if you let people choose you'll end up with less money to pay for your society that doesn't let people opt out. The taxes racket is big business, that's why wars are fought for who gets to govern, that's why elections are big business and high stakes - they all want to be the one forcing everyone else to pay for the things they want.

My magical society doesn't need to pay for anything, it's you that wants and expects things paid for by force, my way is to let people pay for or not pay for whatever they want - maybe that's too simple for you.

Anonymous · ‎06-10-2019

@TheGx

Don't care about the US. We're in Canada. Besides, that "civilized" society had a whole freaking war over keeping other people enslaved. Yeah. Civilized.

I don't settle. I'm fine to pay in to a system that provides benefits like nice roads and hospitals (as our two shining examples continue). I think it's reasonable to "force" everybody else to pay their fair share too if I'm having to pay.

Those insurance providers likely don't pay for the whole hospital and staff and nurses and doctors and equipment etc. The states is its own special case because they're a capitalist/corporatist backwater. But much of other civilized countries have publically paid health systems. That visitor might pay some fees and expenses as decided by the facility but the visitor doesn't pay for everything that exists having to do with that facility. Land, utilities, construction, maintenance, wages etc.

You do know that insurance is shared cost right? Oh look...the same as publicly provided services. And with a public system, the "rates" are much lower because the costs are spread out over more people.

You keep mentioning taxes didn't always exist. Once people starting banding together into larger groups, things had to be paid for that they couldn't otherwise do for themselves. Taxes. Be they rents, tolls, charges, fees, tithes etc. If you wished to be a part of that larger grouping of people then you had to ("forced to") pay into the pot. Otherwise...get lost. Go live on an island for all we care. So some did. Then others joined them. Then they had to be organized about how to pay for it all. Oh look. Taxes. Again.

I like having systems and services available to me when needed. My own disaster could happen at any time. Otherwise I'm dead. Yeah I'll pay for the upkeep of that system and service. Even though I may never use it. That really is the same as insurance...just cheaper.

As for welfare recipients...I think with all the wealth concentrated in so few hands that a good chunk of that wealth should be extracted so that all of the not so wealthy, vast majority of the rest of us could live with some dignity by having a basic income. Welfare is beneath dignified. But it's what we currently have available for the not so fortunate. Have you no compassion for your fellow humans? Or are you really only just out for #1?

Nobody expects the nicest roads and nicest hospitals. We would all want them to not destroy our cars and to be run efficiently with the dollars they get. I like knowing that I can just walk into a hospital with whatever ails me and get medical attention without going broke and selling my assets or worse being turned away because I have nothing to pay for it. No thanks.

It's not force. It's voluntarily agreeing to pay into the pot for systems and services that I can use or that my fellow humans need. You're always "free" to leave and go start your own system elsewhere. You can kill off or banish those that become freeloaders all you want. But wait...your magical society still needs to pay for stuff and who's payin' and how? All of you - by some form of taxation - by "force".

mynewhome · ‎06-10-2019

that's not true...they treat this like a parking ticket and it's actually the car and its owner that are charged.

The picture shows the car crossing into the intersection (license plate clearly visible) and the color of the light when it is so it's pretty hard to say the car was not running the red light.

All tickets got redcuded to $240 from $360 by pleading guilty and proceeding to trial.

A friend of mine went to trial and they could not find the photos and it was dismissed, so I guess it's worth a try if you have the time.

TheGx · ‎06-10-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx wrote:
Well, after everything you've said, it's still taking by force - there's no choice to opt out of taxes is there? You can justify it all you want by saying how eveyone benefits, and maybe everyone does benefit, but still there is no choice - and that's what I have a problem with. For a society to be truely free, people have to be free to choose what they pay for, anything else is simply taking by force.

The way you've explained it about telling everyine to put in their "share" and make it easier to swallow by the common good rhetoric, is the same thing churches and other greater good group get others to donate too - and I have nothing against donating, except when it's mandatory like it is with taxes.

So, maybe it upsets you that you'll happily pay taxes while others don't want to be forced to, consider why you are upset - you want others to do what you happily do, but you don't consider letting people have their own free choice on the matter?

Sure we have nice roads and hospitals etc all paid for by taxpayers, but it's just like the pyramids and the great wall and the slaves who built it - somebody decides that taxes or labour will be taken by force for some greater purpose.

No matter what the greater benefit is or excuse is, bottom line is that no one can choose not to contribute - that's where the wrong is.
@TheGx
But we've agreed that people won't likely voluntarily pay into the system to pay for the benefits they enjoy. How do you propose that you're going to pay for those nice roads and hospitals? Maybe if you died of a simple infection then you can die proudly proclaiming that yeah well I didn't pay a dang thing so here I am dead so take that you dirty tax collectors I'm dead hahahah. Or I guess you just walk around in undeveloped woods.

My problem with those that don't want to pay into the system is that then they can't possibly go about enjoying the benefits of it. That would be taking without paying. Society costs money.

I think you need to go and find some deserted island and live alone. Then no one can force you to do anything. This is civilized society. We trade some freedoms for the benefits that a society brings. If you wish to live amongst us then you just have to be willing to trade the same.
I have often quipped when saying something about being free to do something that we're "mostly" free. No one in a civilized society is completely free.

I agree that we're not truly free. We can't do alot of things that maybe we'd like to do. I have a problem with hate speech laws. But we have them. I'm not going to go out marching to overthrow it. It's not worth it. If someone of some other society wants to hate all over me then I just ignore it. All the way up until they go about physically harming me. Then I'll do what I can to stop them.

@Anonymous You say no one in a civilized society is completely free, and I agree - and I point out that this is the whole problem to begin with, because we should be exploring ways to be truly free and remain in a civilized society. The time before income taxes were introduced was only 100 years ago before world war 1, the united states didn't have income taxes then and was still a civilized society, and other times in history were income taxes didn't exist yet were also civilized, so it's possible if we try - so why not expirment with a no tax society using trial and error until it works, instead of settling for a society were no one is completely free?

One example we can probably all relate to is to think of it like someone travelling to a foreign country, the traveller pays no taxes so has to buy insurance to be covered for hospitals etc - so we know that health plans can be pay for by choice not by force, everything else can be paid by choice too instead of by force. The idea of forcing people to pay for the benefits of society just isn't rational, because we have private insurance companies for health/auto/etc and if that can be done without forcing taxes upon everyone - then anything can be done without forcing taxes on everyone too.

I don't think anyone has to go live on a deserted island to be free, we just have to change the culture of thinking taxes are unavoidable - because that's just not true, taxes did not always exist, governments created them and they keep growing because everyone allows them to keep growing. Less taxes would mean less spent on infrastructure, but why not spend less? Instead of rasing taxes and finding ways to forcifully take more money from citizens through taxes and red light cameras etc - why not find ways to reduce taxes each year, at least little by little by cutting spending.

I agree with you that those that don't pay should not enjoy the benefits paid by others, but the society your taxes currently pay into now it exactly that - doesn't your taxes pay for all sorts of social welfare for those not paying taxes? Like all the people on welfare are being supported by your taxes, if there were no taxes then those who wanted to pay for the poor could do so by free choice instead of being forced to like how it is now. So if you don't want to be paying for others that don't pay taxes like you, you should stop supporting this system of taxation and instead support a system that only allows those who pay to receive what they pay for - just like private home/auto/health/etc insurance is done.

It wouldn't be hard to change the system, it's not hard to operate private home/auto/health/etc insurance coverage, so it wouldn't be hard to change everything to operate the same way - then people could have the choice to pay in or opt out. The gang mentality of forcing everyone to do the same as society expects of them is not reasonble, it's more reasonable to allow people to choose what they want to pay for instead of forcing them. Some people don't want the nicest roads and nicest hospitals, you can't blame them for not helping pay for the nicest things others want, even if they don't live on an island or in the forest - people just want to be able to choose for themselves instead of being told want they have to do and being told what's best for them.

Anonymous · ‎06-07-2019

@TheGx wrote:
Well, after everything you've said, it's still taking by force - there's no choice to opt out of taxes is there? You can justify it all you want by saying how eveyone benefits, and maybe everyone does benefit, but still there is no choice - and that's what I have a problem with. For a society to be truely free, people have to be free to choose what they pay for, anything else is simply taking by force.

The way you've explained it about telling everyine to put in their "share" and make it easier to swallow by the common good rhetoric, is the same thing churches and other greater good group get others to donate too - and I have nothing against donating, except when it's mandatory like it is with taxes.

So, maybe it upsets you that you'll happily pay taxes while others don't want to be forced to, consider why you are upset - you want others to do what you happily do, but you don't consider letting people have their own free choice on the matter?

Sure we have nice roads and hospitals etc all paid for by taxpayers, but it's just like the pyramids and the great wall and the slaves who built it - somebody decides that taxes or labour will be taken by force for some greater purpose.

No matter what the greater benefit is or excuse is, bottom line is that no one can choose not to contribute - that's where the wrong is.

@TheGx

But we've agreed that people won't likely voluntarily pay into the system to pay for the benefits they enjoy. How do you propose that you're going to pay for those nice roads and hospitals? Maybe if you died of a simple infection then you can die proudly proclaiming that yeah well I didn't pay a dang thing so here I am dead so take that you dirty tax collectors I'm dead hahahah. Or I guess you just walk around in undeveloped woods.

My problem with those that don't want to pay into the system is that then they can't possibly go about enjoying the benefits of it. That would be taking without paying. Society costs money.

I think you need to go and find some deserted island and live alone. Then no one can force you to do anything. This is civilized society. We trade some freedoms for the benefits that a society brings. If you wish to live amongst us then you just have to be willing to trade the same.

I have often quipped when saying something about being free to do something that we're "mostly" free. No one in a civilized society is completely free.

I agree that we're not truly free. We can't do alot of things that maybe we'd like to do. I have a problem with hate speech laws. But we have them. I'm not going to go out marching to overthrow it. It's not worth it. If someone of some other society wants to hate all over me then I just ignore it. All the way up until they go about physically harming me. Then I'll do what I can to stop them.

stonechucker · ‎06-07-2019

I haven't read this entire thread, but if I remember correctly, these cameras and photos take a couple of pictuers.

One is the driver of the vehicle, and there is one of the licence plate, and I'm sure the red light is also pictured.

You can't be assured you're the one being ticketed, as the licence plate identifies the registered owner of the car/leaser of the vehicle. The driver could be someone else.

Unless the owner (or a driver of the company that owns the vehicle), you can battle the charge.

TheGx · ‎06-07-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx
"forcing people to donate" ?? It's not donating. It's putting in your share of the overall costs of upkeep.
Of course nobody *wants* to pay, but it's just what you do in a society of a group of people.
Only paying for things when it affects you is beyond selfish and also not thinking it through.

So you hurt yourself. Are you going to haul yourself off to a hospital and pay your at-that-moment usage-fee for EVERYTHING. The mere existance of it? And where? It would make economic sense to put it closest to the most people. I guess those living in rural areas can die for lack of a close by hospital. The doctors? Every kind of specialist doctor there is? That gets expensive fast. The nurses? The equipment? Does every hospital then need to have every possible piece of equipment just in case you happen to haul yourself there and you need a particular item to save you?

Pay per use: so tolls for a stretch of road. Which road? How far is a toll worth? Who owns the road? Different tolls for different volume of use? Tolls for sidewalks? Tolls for parks?
Before income taxes, it was all for yourself. Do or die. Survival of the fittest. FAR fewer services that were for the common good that you could even hope to pay a toll for. You might manage to sustain a small group of people in a small geographic area. Then you're back to rules and structure and "force". Or just get kicked out of that group. Then you die because you have no support structure. Is that force? You die if you don't agree to some rules and share of the costs of them?

I'll continue to disagree to the similarity between choosing to tip someone for a service rendered (which I really dislike doing by the way...just pay the worker a living wage to begin with) and sharing in the overall costs of all of the infrastructure and services available to those that choose to pay in.

There are people that manage to "live off the grid" inside of this capitalist society. Might be a family or extended family or a small group of people. Do you really think they don't have shared costs or shared work for whatever is being produced to live off of?

I'll admit to having a look into that sovereign citizen thing. I couldn't get past the higher power god thing. I wouldn't be able to stand before the power that is oppressing me and profess that a higher power god thing says I can be this way.

So I agree with the majority to play along and pay my share and enjoy the fruits of what a large group of people can do together as a society. I may not agree with the choices that the elected managers of that society make in regards to spending money on such and such that does not benefit me directly. But then nor does the person across this vast geographic space under their management agree to spend money on things that might benefit me and not them. But we do. Because it helps all of us be better, live better, live longer, be healthier, not have potholes, keep the buses running etc. All for the common good.

Heck...think of your pay per use, as you need it expenditures as your taxes. What a concept. Someone should invent a society that works that way. Oh wait.

Well, after everything you've said, it's still taking by force - there's no choice to opt out of taxes is there? You can justify it all you want by saying how eveyone benefits, and maybe everyone does benefit, but still there is no choice - and that's what I have a problem with. For a society to be truely free, people have to be free to choose what they pay for, anything else is simply taking by force.

The way you've explained it about telling everyine to put in their "share" and make it easier to swallow by the common good rhetoric, is the same thing churches and other greater good group get others to donate too - and I have nothing against donating, except when it's mandatory like it is with taxes.

So, maybe it upsets you that you'll happily pay taxes while others don't want to be forced to, consider why you are upset - you want others to do what you happily do, but you don't consider letting people have their own free choice on the matter?

Sure we have nice roads and hospitals etc all paid for by taxpayers, but it's just like the pyramids and the great wall and the slaves who built it - somebody decides that taxes or labour will be taken by force for some greater purpose.

No matter what the greater benefit is or excuse is, bottom line is that no one can choose not to contribute - that's where the wrong is.

Anonymous · ‎06-07-2019

@TheGx

"forcing people to donate" ?? It's not donating. It's putting in your share of the overall costs of upkeep.
Of course nobody *wants* to pay, but it's just what you do in a society of a group of people.
Only paying for things when it affects you is beyond selfish and also not thinking it through.

So you hurt yourself. Are you going to haul yourself off to a hospital and pay your at-that-moment usage-fee for EVERYTHING. The mere existance of it? And where? It would make economic sense to put it closest to the most people. I guess those living in rural areas can die for lack of a close by hospital. The doctors? Every kind of specialist doctor there is? That gets expensive fast. The nurses? The equipment? Does every hospital then need to have every possible piece of equipment just in case you happen to haul yourself there and you need a particular item to save you?

Pay per use: so tolls for a stretch of road. Which road? How far is a toll worth? Who owns the road? Different tolls for different volume of use? Tolls for sidewalks? Tolls for parks?

Before income taxes, it was all for yourself. Do or die. Survival of the fittest. FAR fewer services that were for the common good that you could even hope to pay a toll for. You might manage to sustain a small group of people in a small geographic area. Then you're back to rules and structure and "force". Or just get kicked out of that group. Then you die because you have no support structure. Is that force? You die if you don't agree to some rules and share of the costs of them?

I'll continue to disagree to the similarity between choosing to tip someone for a service rendered (which I really dislike doing by the way...just pay the worker a living wage to begin with) and sharing in the overall costs of all of the infrastructure and services available to those that choose to pay in.

There are people that manage to "live off the grid" inside of this capitalist society. Might be a family or extended family or a small group of people. Do you really think they don't have shared costs or shared work for whatever is being produced to live off of?

I'll admit to having a look into that sovereign citizen thing. I couldn't get past the higher power god thing. I wouldn't be able to stand before the power that is oppressing me and profess that a higher power god thing says I can be this way.

So I agree with the majority to play along and pay my share and enjoy the fruits of what a large group of people can do together as a society. I may not agree with the choices that the elected managers of that society make in regards to spending money on such and such that does not benefit me directly. But then nor does the person across this vast geographic space under their management agree to spend money on things that might benefit me and not them. But we do. Because it helps all of us be better, live better, live longer, be healthier, not have potholes, keep the buses running etc. All for the common good.

Heck...think of your pay per use, as you need it expenditures as your taxes. What a concept. Someone should invent a society that works that way. Oh wait.

TheGx · ‎06-06-2019

@Anonymous wrote:
@TheGx wrote:
@Anonymous I'd be more accepting of helping out for a common goal or common good if I wasn't forced to do it, kinda like tipping - I don't like to be forced or pressured or shamed into doing things that others want me to do, especially the holier than thou society/governments.
@TheGx
Do you really think people would pay in to the system if they didn't have to?
Sure, ok, here's 10 bucks to help fill that pothole that I crash through every day. Sure, ok, here's 20 bucks to help pay for oil changes in my city bus fleet that I use every day.
Not gonna happen.
Paying for common-good services has no relation to tipping an already-paid person for a service rendered.

Unless you're one o' those sovereign citizen wackadoodles. 🙂

Haha, I am a Soverign Citizen, but not a wackadoodle - at least I don't think I'm a wackadoodle. Anyways, I agree with you that not many would pay if they don't have to, but that proves that forcing people to donate is wrong to begin with - nobody should be forced to do anything they don't want to do. All this government hypocrasy about force not being an answer is just their propaganda to monopolize the use of force - ie they the only ones that can use force but no one else can. Bottom line is that when someone is forced, that's always wrong, especially to the one being forced - the ones doing the forcing always think their justified and have reasons and excuses holier than thou attitudes.

What you said about not paying for pot holes or city buses is true, and I don't want to pay and neither do most not want to pay, because people will only want to pay if it effects them directly - but that's exactly how it should be, why should people be forced to pay for things that don't directly effect them? Just like at Public I pay only for what I use, I should only have to pay for what I use in society too.

Sure you can say everything will fall apart if we all don't help pay, but I don't believe that at all, the world was fine before income taxes were invented - history has proved it by virtue of all being here despite the majority of humanity thriving before taxes were invented.

There is a similarity to tipping already paid people and taxes for common good services, it's the peer pressure that's similar. Not tipping is frowned upon by society, and in some places tipping is forced by adding it directly to the bill - not paying taxes is also frowned upon and forced. The relation I point out is that nobody should be shamed/forced/pressured into doing either.

Anonymous · ‎06-06-2019

@TheGx wrote:
@Anonymous I'd be more accepting of helping out for a common goal or common good if I wasn't forced to do it, kinda like tipping - I don't like to be forced or pressured or shamed into doing things that others want me to do, especially the holier than thou society/governments.

@TheGx

Do you really think people would pay in to the system if they didn't have to?

Sure, ok, here's 10 bucks to help fill that pothole that I crash through every day. Sure, ok, here's 20 bucks to help pay for oil changes in my city bus fleet that I use every day.

Not gonna happen.

Paying for common-good services has no relation to tipping an already-paid person for a service rendered.

Unless you're one o' those sovereign citizen wackadoodles. 🙂