Electric Cars

[ecowen]

Anyone out there have an opinion or advice on purchasing an electric vehicle?  We've researched a bit and test drove a Tesla and a Kona (Hundai).  We preferred the  Kona for comfort and visibility.  One detraction  of the Tesla is that in BC there is no Scrappit option. Any responses would be appreciated.

[Bullet77]

I know someone with a 2012 Chevy Volt. He purchased it for $51,000.00 new.

He only has 60,000 Kms on it, not much.

He found out the hard way the batteries or battery is only good for 10 years. The replacement cost is going to cost him $35,000. plus tax.

And no I haven't accidently added an extra zero.

It looks like if you buy an electric car you will have to trade it in every 3 to 4 years. I you buy a used one make sure you won't be replacing the battery.

[Anonymous]

Yes colder weather does affect range.

The intent of the superchargers is for travelling. I had thought they were about the same cost as the Petro-Can, Electrify Canada and Fortis chargers ie. about $0.27 minute. I much prefer the few BCHydro chargers at $0.35 kw rather than paying for time due to the taper down at higher levels of charge.

So either way, the larger the battery capacity, the more it would cost.

[ecowen]

Well, I started this thread about 5 months ago just after we bought our EV.  I thought I'd post some observations.  We still love this car and are happy to have a Kona.  The range works well for us.  We can go anywhere in BC and find free charging stations.  For now, I'm happy to charge at a local free BC Hydro DC Fast Charger for an hour or so every 2 weeks or so.  We fashioned a cheap ($50.00) Level 2  charger at home so if need be we can charge overnight.  One thing to be aware of - you can't count on the range posted by the manufacturer.  I start wanting to charge once I'm down to 20% battery left, and it's not recommended to charge your battery over 80%.  That's why Tesla owners with a low range battery are not too happy.  And, Tesla is now charging  for their Superchargers so it's costing almost as much to drive a Tesla as an ICE - so Tesla drivers tell me.

Cold weather doesn't affect the starting of the car at all.  And, the Kona handled well in the slimey BC snow we had this year - even with the all season tires that came with the car.

[yanzhiqiang]

If you go on line check electric car vs gas cars, there are a lot of negative about evs. I feel maybe the big oil company try their most to stop people considering evs. In these articles they ignores lots of benefits of evs, only talk about how expensive to replace your batteries. Come on! in 10 years who knows how much battery price  going to go down. Look back 10 years we can have a idea about price difference of Toyota hybrid batteries. I will certainly buy a ev or phev for my next vehicle. I am tired of the oil company's playing monkeys with the gas price every day( in bc at least). 

[Anonymous]

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@Bullet77 wrote:

If I had access to free and cheap electricity , I would probably own own now too. But I don't in Alberta it doesn't matter if you use electricity or not. They nail on the admin and user flat rate fees. Even the City Of Calgary get a municipal franchise fee on electricity.

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 @Bullet77 

Just so we're clear...if I plugged in at home I would be paying through my utility bill as normal consumption. We certainly don't have free electricity in BC if that's what you were assuming. The free part is out and about using publicly available chargers. Some charge. Some don't.

[Bullet77]

If I had access to free and cheap electricity , I would probably own own now too. But I don't in Alberta it doesn't matter if you use electricity or not. They nail on the admin and user flat rate fees. Even the City Of Calgary get a municipal franchise fee on electricity.

[darlicious]

@Anonymous 

I think somewhere on your journey you got from A to C without going to B but you got there so that's where we are now? As they say you can't miss something you haven't done but I do look at my beloved "rockhopper" now and I don't know if I can go back!!?

https://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/The-Lounge/Electric-Cars/td-p/499408/highlight/true/page/2

[Anonymous]

 @darlicious 

But you're not going to be in a cozy cabin driving through slush or pounding rain on an ebike. Or optionally, cozy butt and hands with heated seats and wheel.

I used to do some four wheeling. I had a closed cabin Jeep. Many others have the "convertible" Jeep. If I was out with a group, the dust was horrendous. Add the heat. There they are all hot and sweaty and covered in dust. I'm nice and comfy in my air conditioned cabin not covered in dust.

I don't quite know how I ended up mentioning that but it's the lounge. 🙂

[darlicious]

@ecowen 

But when you have to eventually pay for "fuel" how much really are you going to have to pay? From what i have read an electric vehicle's fuel cost is about 1/8th of the fuel cost of a conventional gasoline fueled vehicle. The average cost per/1000 km is $84 for conventional thus $10.50/1000km for the average electric vehicle. While not free that's pretty darn cheap however it is 10x the cost of charging my ebike to cover the same distance. Which upon further inspection i have discovered has a 48v battery and has a range of 80 to 135 km on a single charge. Seeing as i ride at least 50% of the time without any assistance and the ability to add a secondary battery that increases the range up to 300 km!  I better go dig under the seat cushions on the couch for enough coin for my next road trip!

[Anonymous]

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@ecowen wrote:

You didn't mention the fun the car provides. 

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I did mention get up and go 🙂

[ecowen]

I agree and all these reasons are why we went electric.  You didn't mention the fun the car provides.  We had never driven a car worth over $2000 for 55 years.  We did all the maintenance ourselves so we had pretty cheap transportation and we knew that financially, buying an electric car made no sense, especially since we don't have many driving years left.  Think of the money we saved on depreciation and collision insurance.  We wanted to experience the amazing emerging technology of an electric vehicle.  A hybrid wouldn't do, too  complicated and all the headaches of an ICE.  And you're right, it's satisfying to be able to use free fuel, even if it will probably only be temporary.

[yanzhiqiang]

I am thinking to buy a Plug in Hybrid for now.

[Anonymous]

 @Bullet77 

I hate the ongoing expense of always buying gas. It was a primary reason for choosing electric.

I can get free electricity for the majority of my driving...which includes longer drives somewhere further on fast chargers. No one gives gas away. It's much less frequent that I only have a pay option.

I grant that the available free fast chargers likely won't be free forever.

Battery: And yet...many people go to the cheaper-to-keep-'er option and pay many thousands of dollars to rebuild or replace their engine. Or tranny. Add to that the constant oil changes and tranny oil, and diff oil and transfer case oil. Additional chunks of money on a constant basis. That also all adds up over the same time span.

My EV has none of that. Brake fluid would be the only similar item. Which is another thing. With regen braking I can slow to a stop without touching the brakes. Far less wear on brake parts. Far fewer brake jobs. Far less brake dust all over your nice wheels on your gas car. I used my automatic tranny gears a lot too and still you have to do brake jobs. A manual tranny you might be able to stretch but you still can't come to a stop.

The battery temperature management coolant would be the only other similar-ish item which according to my owners manual is every 240,000km.

I really like not constantly shelling out money for this, that and the other thing. Definitely more money up front than a gas car of similar "class". So a one-time pain for a long term of virtually zero.

I did do a cost-benefit analysis of my driving habits and I calculated 9 years in my case. That would be different for everybody. But now my driving is way reduced living in an urban-ish area. Could a gas car suffice? Maybe. I sure like the get up and go of an EV though. Can't get out of your own way with a basic, cheap, great-on-gas car.

[Bullet77]

If you are buying an electric car to save the planet. Then good for you.

BTW your carbon footprint on your new electric car from your manufacturer is now worse than the gasoline you would have burned over the next 7 years.

So if you can buy the same type of vehicle with a gasoline engine for $30,000.00 and an electric for $50,000.00 and you  would only burned $3,000 a year in gas.

With the cost of electricity you will never break even or come close, Wait till you need a battery replacement.

[ecowen]

OK, I think it's time to relate the tale of our Scrap it car.  Last Feb. we decided it was a Kona for us so we ordered one.  It could take up to 9 months to arrive.  So, we had a '95 Pathfinder sitting at home waiting for my husband to install a new transmission.  He was reluctant to do it as our source of excellent used parts, (Pick a Part in Chilliwack) had gone out of business, and, he said it was a difficult job  that he really didn't want to tackle. We are gamblers, play a bit of stock market and used to go to the casino occasionally, (before COVID).  So, we decided to insure the Pathfinder so that in 6 months it would be ready to earn us $6000 as a Scrap It car.  It could be driven forward but only occasionally would it go into reverse.  An $800 bet.  In late August, 2021 Kona's began to arrive.  We wanted only the ceramic blue so we held out till late Sept. and it became available in Kelowna.  After getting it home, we installed a good battery into the Pathfinder and she started right up, but wouldn't go into reverse to back out of our driveway.  I jokingly started pushing and way she went!! Down the driveway and onto the road.  Off we went to the scrap yard, did the paperwork and proceeded to come home and wait for our $6000.  3 days later it was deposited right into our bank account. Very exciting.

Scrap it cars must be insured to be driven for 6 months before they can be scrapped.  the dealer must have an available Scrap it Coupon, and, you need to buy a new EV to get the $6000.  We received the $8000 in federal and provincial grants as well.  All good.

[Anonymous]

 @will13am 

When the Bolt showed up I was like raised eyebrows. Saw the BC rebate of $5k and thought yeah but they're still a good bit of money. Then the $6k scrap it thing came along and I'm like well ok getting there. Then the Feds $5k arrived and it's alright then I'm in.

In that meantime the Kona arrived. So I was between those two.

[will13am]

I generally keep my vehicles until they are totally used up (300,000+ km) before sending them to recycle.  So whatever I choose, it is a mistake I have to live with for a long while.  I am going to wait a bit for the technology to really mature.  Ideally when I finally get a BEV, it will be equipped with a solid state battery capable of under 1 hour recharge from empty to full at with at least 500 km range.  It goes without saying, the HVAC has to be on par with ICE vehicles.  Having full self driving capability would be a stretch goal.  

[ecowen]

Free charging stations are a thrill for us right now as we're new to all this EV stuff and enjoying it.  I agree, these chargers are in their infancy.  There's a BC Hydro Powertech Lab that has 1 fast free DC charger.  While charging, 2 workers arrived to check on their cars that were charging their cars at the slower charges.  They are actively researching how various EV's react to using their chargers.  
We were happy to see a compound full of new chargers waiting to be installed.  The Plugshare app  sometimes shows where chargers are coming and one is a few minutes away from home for us so that will be fabulous for us.  However, I'm guessing that any time now all chargers will be taxed.  EV's are using highways as much as ICE's so it's only fair.

As far as cost is concerned, as with gas, it all depends how far you drive.  Our neighbour with a Tesla spends $6.00 per month and sometimes charges at home only with a level 2 charger.  We used to spend about $50. per month on gas.  At the moment, we're still trying to calculate how much we'll spend on the Kona.  BC Hydro has a 2 tier pricing system for electric consumption.  In summer, we don't reach tier 2 but in winter we do.  Might have to get my PHD (Math) daughter to help with this one.

I should mention that we live in Surrey.  EV drivers we's spoken to while charging tell us BC is great for charging stations, but once you get to Alberta, it's a different story. 

Thank you, everyone, for the posts.

[Anonymous]

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@will13am wrote:

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Wow, that is quite the premium for fast charging!  The bolt is rated for about 400 km of range (does that compare to real world results).  We are looking at $5.25 per 100 km of driving.  At just under a buck a litre for regular, I am not too far off in my car.  The scale will tip the other way when governments figure out that they need to shift taxes on gasoline to electricity.   

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 @will13am 

It's not very often to rarely do I pay for charging. I'm now a 15 minute walk to a free "slow" charger during evenings/weekends.

Range varies with temperature and terrain. The Bolt and many other EV's have an automatic regen that either doesn't use up or even adds power back. This is great in BC what with our terrain. Or even stop and go.

When I go somewhere further, I do the planning to bump up at the many free fast chargers. If I go somewhere to stay overnight I find a place that offers a slow charger there or nearby. Many hotels are putting in these chargers. They're free for guests. Maybe they're a little more upscale hotels than your basic cheap hotel and so you pay more anyway. Or that there's a free fast charger nearby.

Of course these free fast chargers may not remain free for long but I'll happily use them while I can thank you very much.

[will13am]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Korth wrote:

@Anonymous 

I don't buy into Elon Musk hype, so I wouldn't choose Tesla. And I wouldn't choose Chevy because they made the worst car I've ever owned.

But otherwise your mini-review was very informative. I'm waiting on Toyota's promised offerings.

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Yeah I liken Musk and Tesla to Jobs and Apple. Almost like a cult following.

Last I read, Toyota is still holding fast to the hybrid approach. Nah. I went all in with all battery.

Don't get me wrong. The HVAC is terrible. The seats are _fine_, not great. There are some visibility issues but that's common with many small cars and the plethora of airbags everywhere. There's no spare tire. Apparently manufacturers can get away with providing a cheap pump and some sealant goop that is useless for sidewall cuts. So therefore no jack or lug wrench. The provided charger is only good for 120V unlike the excellent newer Leaf one. But there's a hack to make it double the speed (which I have chosen not to do).

I won't get into other comparisons of other cars as the OP still has their new car smell to enjoy 🙂

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Living in a climate where winter is long and snowy means HVAC is an important factor in vehicle selection.  It's one of the reasons why I don't believe BEVs are ready for prime time just yet.  Toyota is probably the most conservative car manufacturers.  When they finally offer BEVs, the technology will be far more mature than today.  Toyota has not really given up on hydrogen which is a distraction in their R&D path to the next mass produced green vehicle.  

[will13am]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Korth wrote:

@ecowen 

I'd be interested in your end-of-winter thoughts about this electric.

How does it respond to cold weather? Does it start up well and does it drive well on cold mornings? Does it actually cost less to buy electricity instead of buying fuel?

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I've been through a winter. Well...up to about December through to April, not. This winter I'll be able to experience it all.

Fast-charging from low starts at a little slower rate until it warms up the battery. Cabin heat of course sucks power.

There is no "start up". It's just on. Cold mornings are the same for tires and any lubricated moving parts. The electric motor doesn't care. Many EV's (Bolt and Kona amongst others) use battery temperature management to keep the batteries at a stable temperature that uses the main drive battery.

It absolutely costs less than buying fuel. While they may change, there are many free fast chargers around BC to enable some travelling around. Then there are a few charging networks. But there are plenty of what I call overnight chargers. Or the ability to charge up for a few hours free.

The main BC crown corporation utility charges per kwh delivered at 35 cents per. My Bolt has a 60kwh battery. So that would be $21 from empty to full. You don't generally show up at a fast charger on empty and you don't generally go all the way to full. The others charge for time. But then that crown corporation also operates the many free fast chargers.

The time ones charge like 16 - 18 per hour.

Many EV's have a taper down when fast charging to slow the flow of the electrons. The slower chargers have a very short taper near full.

Anyway, I'm excited for ecowen to have joined the EV world. I joined May 2019. Love it. Wouldn't go back.

I chose Chevy 'cuz.. well.. Chevy. I couldn't justify the cost of any Tesla's. But I certainly thank their buyers for disrupting the car industry and opening the door to making more "affordable" EV's possible.

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Wow, that is quite the premium for fast charging!  The bolt is rated for about 400 km of range (does that compare to real world results).  We are looking at $5.25 per 100 km of driving.  At just under a buck a litre for regular, I am not too far off in my car.  The scale will tip the other way when governments figure out that they need to shift taxes on gasoline to electricity.   

[Anonymous]

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@ecowen wrote:

Our second car is a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee as well.  We're keeping it for winter.  And yes, the low seats in the sedan type Tesla was another con in the EV purchasing decision making.  If Tesla produces an SUV type car, I'll be looking at it very closely as I'd really like to have the technology of the Tesla.

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 @ecowen 

Too rich for my blood 🙂

I'm just more comfortable with an established auto-maker. I appreciate Tesla buyers for making this market happen but they're just too much money.

[ecowen]

Our second car is a 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee as well.  We're keeping it for winter.  And yes, the low seats in the sedan type Tesla was another con in the EV purchasing decision making.  If Tesla produces an SUV type car, I'll be looking at it very closely as I'd really like to have the technology of the Tesla.

[Korth]

@Anonymous 

I'd have to dig into the tech specifics to know how useful those hacks might be. Maybe even take a look inside an external "charger" and inside the vehicle-side electricals.

I do know enough (not expert) battery engineering to understand the tradeoffs. But it's intended to become a sort of ancillary infrastructure, to be deployed over large scales for end consumers. So I figure it already has a lot of careful engineering into an "optimized" balance of operating cost, purchase cost, reliability, performance, longevity, and sustainability (in roughly that order). Tweaking that balance would improve one parameter less than it diminishes the other parameters.

Battery tech has seen slow and steady improvement for decades. Another few points added to capacity and longevity and another few pennies subtracted from cost every year. Multiply by the raw quantity onboard an electric vehicle and year-to-year differences can be surprising.

[Anonymous]

 @ecowen 

Having driven a Jeep Cherokee for many years I really like being able to swing my feet and legs out and stand up.

The Tesla's and any other sedan car you're practically crawling up off the floor.

The Bolt is pretty much swing out and stand too. Probably like your Kona.

[ecowen]

Just a little comment about why I chose my EV. I didn't care about brand or stye, just comfort and range.  Tesla is years ahead of everyone in battery management and has an incredible network of fast chargers that can only be used by Tesla's.  ( However, Teslas can use the chargers that all other EV's can use). If I had to travel a lot, it would have to be a Tesla.

I'm a senior who has experienced a walker and a wheel chair, so I wanted a car that would be easy to load and unload.  So, the Kona's SUV type style was appealing.  I was used to small SUV's, (Sunrunner and Vitara), so the Kona's size wasn't an issue.  As a "Mall Runner", it's perfect.  Easy to park, easy to load and unload packages.

[Anonymous]

 @ecowen 

Those Coq hills...your battery would certainly notice them 🙂

Get the app called Plugshare. It will show all the chargers and any rates associated.

The free fast chargers that I know about starting at North Surrey are:

Tynehead Esso

Chilliwack regional district office (whatever actual name @Korth ?)

Hope

Britton Creek

Kamloops

Hope slide

Manning

Penticton

Vernon

There are others going further north and east.  Some are a slower fast charger. The charging ones I know of are some BCHydro, FortisBC, Electrify Canada, Petro-Canada.

Some Chev dealers have slower fast chargers.

 @Korth 

The brick is certified for only 120V. But enthusiasts have discovered that the guts can do 240V. The amperage is limited to 12A in both cases. Then you need to make or get a non-compliant adapter to connect from the regular wall plug of the charger to a 240V source like say an oven plug. But it works. I will do this when I'm out of warranty.

Then that brick sends a signal to the car saying "yeah I can give ya 240V at 12A".

If just 120V then the car can select 8A or 12A without any hacks.

[Korth]

@Anonymous 

My understanding is that the "chargers" are really just fancy adapters. The actual charging components (power regulation, filtering, conversion, etc) are all built into the vehicle itself (for compatibility, safety, other reasons) so you can theoretically plug your car in anywhere without electrical hazard.

So I'm not sure what hacking/modding the "charger" could accomplish. Assuming they're all basically the same hardware. Although it's still possible that each manufacturer/brand does something a little different (in no small part because it would force consumers to buy the "chargers" they sell). But it's sort of like a smartphone with standard USB plug vs a smartphone with a weird (maybe even a one-of-a-kind) proprietary plug - consumers generally dislike the general inconveniences and added costs attached to non-standard connectors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxB7zA-e4Y

[ecowen]

Just to continue from the original post on the experience of driving the Kona,  Our very first charging experience was at Loon Lake Rest Area on the Connector.  I had time to kill while waiting for my husband in the Vitara.  He was slower than me on the large hill.  The Kona didn't even notice the hill.  

As for charging, once I figured which cable to use, charging just began and I could see the rate on the dash display.  It was a sunny, golden pre-fall day, so no problem waiting for a bit.  Now we were interested in checking out all the charging stations on the way home. Britton Creek has 2 fast DC Chargers, but only 1 worked.  Charged a bit there while having dinner, then home.  

We drove to Princeton on Hwy 3 just because we could and spent a bit of time at the Hope Slide which has 2 fast chargers.   Our next road trip was to Keremeos, to pick up the end of season fruits and vegetables.  The charger in Keremeos isn't free, so we returned to the Slide for a bit of free charge, then home.

Since then we're tried all local charging stations just to see how they work.  Now that we're not driving on long trips, we can plug into 110 at home and keep topped up.  Or, just charge for free at the free ones near us.

[Anonymous]

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@Korth wrote:

@Anonymous 

I don't buy into Elon Musk hype, so I wouldn't choose Tesla. And I wouldn't choose Chevy because they made the worst car I've ever owned.

But otherwise your mini-review was very informative. I'm waiting on Toyota's promised offerings.

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Yeah I liken Musk and Tesla to Jobs and Apple. Almost like a cult following.

Last I read, Toyota is still holding fast to the hybrid approach. Nah. I went all in with all battery.

Don't get me wrong. The HVAC is terrible. The seats are _fine_, not great. There are some visibility issues but that's common with many small cars and the plethora of airbags everywhere. There's no spare tire. Apparently manufacturers can get away with providing a cheap pump and some sealant goop that is useless for sidewall cuts. So therefore no jack or lug wrench. The provided charger is only good for 120V unlike the excellent newer Leaf one. But there's a hack to make it double the speed (which I have chosen not to do).

I won't get into other comparisons of other cars as the OP still has their new car smell to enjoy 🙂