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Telus LTE 700MHz Band

jmapark91
Good Citizen / Bon Citoyen

Hi guys,

 

I was thinking of getting a new phone and tried to check if the phone will be compatible with Public Mobile.

The phone I am looking at is called Xiaomi Mi Mix and it's compatible with all the frequencies Telus network uses EXCEPT for the LTE 700MHz band.

 

Has Telus deployed the 700MHz band already? If so, would I notice a big difference in the connectivity and speed? If not launched already, when will Telus start using the 700MHz band, and how will it effect the connectivity/speed if I decided to use this phone? I'm located in downtown Toronto by the way.

 

Thanks!

16 REPLIES 16

Quest
Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

@sheytoon

...I'm not aware of any tax breaks, do you have any info on that to share?...


I don't remember now where I have heard it or read about it.

 

I think I should say, instead of tax brakes, that previous government gave incentives to those wireless providers that wanted to invest in underserved communities in some areas of Eastern, Northern and Southern Ontario.

 

There are places that building networks is not very cost effective so we need some form of subsidy or interference of government although as tax payers we may not agree with that but it is happening in other areas in our life as well.

 

Since tax payers money is involved Rogers argued successfully that they should be allowed to roam on these networks with some significant discount as well.

No problem!

I'm not sure why it disappeared either. I tried to edit my post to add a small point and it said my post required moderator approval, so it's stuck in a pending state until mods take a look.

Quest
Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

@sheytoon wrote:

Hi @Quest

Bell/Telus have B17 simultaneously advertised as B12, so phones can see both.


Thanks @sheytoon for your detailed explanation on the subject matter. I enjoyed it and hope to learn something more about frequencies and so on. I don't know why your post vanished. When I tried to respond it didn't exist anymore.

 

That is why I am using this post to respond.

@Quest:

It's going to be a long and confusing topic, so please bear with me. 700 MHz is actually a generic name for 4 different bands, which today are used for LTE by North American operators:
B12, B13, B17, B29

 

Most LTE in Canada is FDD (Frequency Division Duplex), which means one frequency is used for downlink (tower to phone), and another frequency is used for uplink (phone to tower). This prevents data collision if there's simultaneous DL and UL data being transmitted.

 

For FDD LTE channels, a PAIR of frequencies are allocated, one for DL and one for UL. So when the spectrum was auctioned, it was mostly done so in pairs. Another type of LTE channel is TDD (Time Division Duplex), where a single (unpaired) frequency is used, but DL and UL take place at different times.

 

There is also a special case of FDD where the spectrum is UNPAIRED, so it is used for DL only.

 

Let's look at the band plan below from Industry Canada (IC):

700MHz-figB1-eng.gif

 

Blocks A, B, C, D, E, C1, C2 were auctioned. Ignore B14, as it is for public safety, and ignore the second (orange) "D" block under B14 as well.

 

The biggest confusion is with the overlapping part of B12 and B17. If an operator buys the license for block B or C, that frequency is in the overlapping part of B12 and B17. The operator can deploy it as either B12 or B17 (or both if they use a special feature called MFBI). But block A is only in B12, not in B17, so it must always be deployed as B12.


You might be wondering why B17 even exists. There's some politics with AT&T in the US, and they were trying to get phone manufacturers to build custom phones for them that only support B17, so the phones wouldn't work on competitor spectrum (B12 - A block). At first they succeeded, but evetually they were made to reconsider. So now we are left with a bit of a mess until all phones eventually support B12. Then we can get rid of B17 entirely.

 

To recap: 

  • Block A is 6+6 MHz of B12.
  • Block B or C is 6+6 MHz of B12 or B17 (operator's choice to deploy it as they wish).
  • Block C1 or C2 is 5+5 MHz of B13.
  • Block D or E is 6 MHz of B29 spectrum. Note that B29 (D and E blocks) is unpaired, which means it's only used for Carrier Aggregation (CA) for downlink as a Secondary Component Carrier (SCC). A non-CA phone can never use B29, and a CA phone cannot use B29 as a Primary Component Carrier (PCC), since there is no uplink capability.

 

Results of the auction are here:

Results.PNG

 

Let's look at Toronto (Southern Ontario) as an example. Rogers owns 12+12 MHz of A and B blocks. They have two options:

  1. Deploy a single 10 MHz channel for B12 (A + B blocks combined)
  2. Deploy 2 separate 5 MHz channels, one for B12 (A block), and one for B17 (B block). They can also use MFBI to simultaneously allow B block to be broadcast as B17 and B12. This is how they have deployed it.

Phones can connect to Rogers B block as B12 or B17, though the frequency and capacity are shared. If Rogers B block on B17 cell is congested, a user connecting to the same B block on B12 cell would still suffer from congestion. They would need to move over to A block on B12 or another cell entirely to get better performance.

 

Bell owns 6+6 MHz of C block. They have deployed it as a single 5 MHz B17 channel with B12 MFBI. They also share this with Telus, so both Bell and Telus see B17 and B12.

 

Telus owns 5+5 MHz of C2 block. They do not own the RAN in Toronto, so they need to ask Bell to deploy this block for them. Bell needs IC's permission before they do so. If you look at the license info, IC has approved subordinate license for Bell:

Bell subordinate license for Telus C2 in Southern Ontario

* If the above link doesn't work, try the following:

  • License category = Mobile Broadband Service
  • Area Code (Tier) = 2-008
  • Area Name = Southern Ontario
  • Choose Telus license 010283515-001 from the search results

 

Telus C2 license in Southern Ontario

 

This allows Bell to deploy C2 block in Toronto. Bell has deployed it as a single 5 MHz B13 channel and shared it with Telus.


Bell also owns 12 MHz of D+E blocks. They have deployed this as a single 10 MHz B29 channel for CA. They also share this with Telus.

 

Rogers ($3.3B) definitely spent way more than Bell ($0.5) and Telus ($1.1) combined.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf11086.html

 

I'm not sure if it was worth it for Rogers. In the future, when all phones support B12, they can deploy as a single 10 MHz B12 channel, so maybe that was their approach.

 

I'm not aware of any tax breaks, do you have any info on that to share?

 

Duplicate, please delete.

 

 

Duplicate, please delete.

 

Quest
Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

 


@sheytoon wrote:

Hi @Quest

Bell/Telus have B17 simultaneously advertised as B12, so phones can see both.


Hi, @sheytoon That would be great news if Telus would have 700Mhz both B17 and B12 available in Toronto for its users. Observing auction of 700Mhz spectrum few years ago I thought Telus didn't purchase any licences for Toronto so even if Bell did it they couldn't share it.

 

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

I remember Rogers spent over three Billion Dollars at that time for 700Mhz BLOCK-A  with a lot of licences in almost whole Canada. Bell/Telus spent less for 700Mhz BLOCK-C but with licences mostly in rural areas. For investing in rural areas they got huge tax brakes.

srlawren
Retired Oracle / Oracle Retraité

@zhadj030 thanks for the tag!

 

@Quest as @sheytoon mentioned, both B12 and B17 (both 700MHz) are available in at least some areas.  I've personally observed both in greater Vancouver, for example.

 

@jmapark91 that phone has both 3G UMTS frequencies required (850MHz and 1900MHz) and some of the available LTE bands (2, 4, 5, 7 for sure).  You could be missing some LTE in building or underground, as noted by previous responses.  If you're not concerned with always having the fastest data connection possible and are okay with dropping down to 3G HSPA+ speeds sometimes, you will likely be happy enough with this phone.


>>> ALERT: I am not a moderator. For account or activation assistance, please click here.

No worries at all. Tag me any time you feel I could be helpful!

@sheytoon Thanks for dropping by to this topic. I wanted to tag you but I though you migh be busy doing something else.

 

Hi @Quest

Bell/Telus have B17 simultaneously advertised as B12, so phones can see both.

sheytoon
Mayor / Maire

@jmapark91

Bell has deployed 700 MHz in Toronto (B17/B12, B13, B29), but it's not everywhere.

Xiaomi Mi Mix supports B2, B4, B5, B7 LTE.

 

Generally speaking, coverage should be excellent in downtown. In extreme situations, you will only receive signal from low frequency bands (example: in an underground parking garage). Low frequency coverage might be sporadic for you until Bell expands coverage. There's generally good B5 LTE availability outside of downtown, and good B17/B12 coverage in the downtown core.

 

See here for more info:

http://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Discussions/LTE-network-fundamentals/td-p/130581/page/...

Quest
Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

@jmapark91 wrote:

Hi guys,

 

I was thinking of getting a new phone and tried to check if the phone will be compatible with Public Mobile.

The phone I am looking at is called Xiaomi Mi Mix and it's compatible with all the frequencies Telus network uses EXCEPT for the LTE 700MHz band.

 

Has Telus deployed the 700MHz band already? If so, would I notice a big difference in the connectivity and speed? If not launched already, when will Telus start using the 700MHz band, and how will it effect the connectivity/speed if I decided to use this phone? I'm located in downtown Toronto by the way.

 

Thanks!


First of all Telus LTE 700MHz use channel 17 unlike Rogers that can use both channels 17 and 12. That is worth to look at when you purchase your phone.

 

From what I know they bought licences in some rural areas of Ontario so don't expect to find it in Toronto.

 

It is not so much about speed but, for example concrete penetration in some office buildings, underground parking lots or basements. Some people want to have access to their data wherever possible and through VoLTE to phone calls as well.

 

It is also cost saving for Telus/Bell because they can keep longer distance between towers.

 

It is a little bit more complicated but I tried to explain it in the most simple way.

will13am
Oracle
Oracle

Band 4 LTE is the most important band to ensure good overall LTE coverage.  Unfortunately, this band is unique to North America.  In general, models that do not have a North American variant will have issues with LTE coverage.  

pchan
Good Citizen / Bon Citoyen

The 700 Mhz band is a lower frequency band that is excellent for signal penetration. If you work downtown and especially in high-rises you will want a phone that does support 700 Mhz.

 

You will still get LTE without it but you may find your signal weak inside the building or in the elevator. I can get reception and talk anywhere in my building including the elevator.

 

I use to be with Wind and they show they have great coverage but their AWS spectrum doesn't penetrate. I couldn't get any reception in my building even if I was near the window lol.  

 

You can read up on the advantage of the 700 Mhz frequency if you like, but I just recommend you find another phone - http://hightechforum.org/low-versus-high-radio-spectrum/

zhadj030
Mayor / Maire

There seems to be a probleme with the chineese phones as they don't work on certains Telus frequencies (or very much phones outside north america)

I took some answers from our great Oracles that might help you out, hoping they pop in and give you more info

.Xiomi Mi.png

Short Answer : "Public Mobile supports LTE on the 700 MHz band but not everywhere. So, LTE will be more variable for you." 

By @Luddite

A bit longer Answer: " you will get some LTE coverage with that phone.  The primary band is band 4, used throughout the country (wherever LTE coverage is available), and that's the band you really want to look for if you desire LTE speed.  The other bands are used to augment coverage, and only in use in some areas (though I've never seen listing of where what bands are deployed)."

By @srlawren

Here is a link  of the source if you want to read more 

http://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Phones-Hardware/LTE-Band-Support-willmyphonework-net-r...

http://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Getting-Started/How-do-I-know-if-my-phone-will-work-on...

Bands arent really by big expertise so I will stop here)

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