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HST Fraud

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

 Thought I would share with everyone that PM is committing HST fraud when providing refunds.  If for some reason they offer you a refund for any reason, their policy is that they don't return the HST.  

After talking with CRA, I've been informed that if you were charged $50 and then refunded $50, the HST on a $0.00 balance would be $0.00.  So they would be required to return the full amount including HST.  The CRA specialist I talked with went though the paperwork and stated that there is no legislation stating any company can retain the HST for services when fully refunded.

25 REPLIES 25

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

They asked me to contact PM once again and if it couldn't be resolved to call them back with my case number.  I'm guessing with the limited staff right now they don't want the additional work load right now.  They also said I could file for a HST rebate providing the form and reason being PM refused to refund the HST, and then I guess they could take it further.  Don't know how they operate, but PM not returning HST is incorrect practice.

Talking with staff, they are now changing their tune and offering to pay back the HST.  But they also claimed they sent a refund which was never received.

 

@MajorPainage  I'm curious why the senior CRA investigator 3 levels up who agreed with your claim of fraud, didn't open an investigation into PM's practices or take on your case in some other fashion?

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

Already done that and they argued they won't.

@MajorPainage sometimes it has to do with the experience of the moderator that approved the refund. Since PM is prepaid and normally doesn't do refunds they may have forgotten to add the HST in. Contact them again, reply to the same private message involving the case and ask them for it. Stay safe. 

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

To keep it simple, I've put in a claim with my credit card company and provided proof that they clearly stated that they would refund the extra charges.

Again my concern is that refunds should include HST according to the CRA.

 

To me it looks like they charged me $56.50 and credited back $50.  If I keep my service, the next billing, they would charge the HST once again so I would then be paying the HST twice.  That is illegal.

@MajorPainage 

       Now we get to the heart of the issue. The $35.03 was your normal plan charge of which you have no issue. Your credit card was charged $56.50 ($50 plan charge +13% tax $6.50= $56.50) Did this charge only show on your credit card statement ? Or did it appear as a plan charge? Or an autopay charge?

      Did you get the full details from your credit card company? Transaction #. Merchant transaction #, public mobile acct transaction #?

       When public mobile agreed to credit you back the erroneous charge was it as a chargeback to your credit card? Refund? Void charge? 

        Or did they offer to credit your account $50? If it was to your account then it includes the hst. If you manually topped up your account from your credit card $50....that would show up on your balance as $50. In the payment section in your account it would say $50+$6.50 hst=$56.50 do you agree? $56.50 submit $50 appears in your balance and $56.50  appears on your credit card.

 

Or to put it another way the $2 autopay reward is actually worth $2.26 in ontario.

 

Since you are leaving a credit to your account will do you no good so the only choice they have is to charge back your credit card at which point they should return $56.50  to that credit card. If pm refuses to do so you can alwavs dispute the charge on your credit card statement with your  credit card company within 60 days.

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

@maximum_gato  the math doesn't really make any sense and they won't explain it.  My plan for the past was $35.03.  In June I was charged $35.03 and again for $56.50.  The payment of $56.50 was without my authorization.  I was inquiring about the second charge and they decided to reimburse me and I was told they would only refund the $50 and no tax.  I was given the $50, and then they took it back with no explanation.  So I'm not only out the HST, but out the $50 also.  My issue when talking to them was the mention of not returning the HST and I called CRA about it, they transferred my up 3 levels to a senior investigator and they said it should have been returned.

@MajorPainage 

              Are we arguing a moot point here? If i understand it correctly you were dissatisfied with your service (or lack there of) and you activated with a different provider. You then raised a big hoopla about it and demanded a full refund. Despite tge terms of service and the legislation on their side public mobile decided on july 1st as a gesture of good will to refund your plan fee but not the hst.

Between july 1st and the 24th you argued back and forth with public about getting the hst back with pm refusing to do so for whatever their reasoning (which is perfectly within their discretion.) On the 24th they rescinded their offer.....(was the CCTS mentioned?) After stewng about it all weekend you came on the community to complain about the hst not being refunded.

        Have you been issued a refund or a credit? And if so it was without the  hst?. Or are you now out $50+hst? Which would make it a moot point.....

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

@maximum_gato  in any business, if the HST was already submitted, they can still pay it back out and it's deducted from the intake and is used as a credit when filing once again in the next quarter.  PM just refuses to pay it back.  

  @MajorPainage 

If pm has already remitted the hst to the CRA then its up to you to apply for your refund of the hst from the CRA....it also depends how you paid for the service. Credit card, voucher etc......

Spoiler
Promotional gifts and free samples

Do not charge the GST/HST on promotional gifts that you give your customers or that you distribute as a bonus with another item for no additional charge. You can claim an ITC for the GST

Returned goods

If you give customers a refund or credit for all or part of an amount they paid or were charged for goods they return, you can adjust, refund, or credit the customer the GST/HST you first charged or collected on these goods. If you do this, issue a credit note to the customer, or have the customer issue a debit note to you.

Be sure the following information is included on the credit or debit note:

  • a statement or other indication that the document is a credit or debit note;
  • your business or trading name, or the name of your intermediary, and your business number (BN), or the BN of the intermediary;
  • the customer’s name or trading name, or the name of the customer’s authorized agent or representative;
  • the date on which the note is issued; and
  • one of the following:
    • the amount of the adjustment, refund, or credit for tax; or
    • a statement that the total amount for which the note is issued includes the adjustment, refund or credit of tax, the tax rate (GST or HST) that applies to each taxable supply for which tax is reduced, and either the total amount and tax reduced for all the supplies to which the same tax rate applies or the total amount and tax reduced for each supply.

You can deduct the amount of the GST/HST adjusted, refunded, or credited in determining your net tax for the reporting period in which you issued the credit note or received the debit note, as long as that amount was previously included in your net tax. In turn, if your customer claimed an ITC, the customer has to add that amount back when calculating its net tax. If your customer claimed a rebate, the customer has to repay that amount.

You have four years from the end of the reporting period during which you reduced the purchase price to make the adjustment, refund, or credit.

If you refund only a certain percentage of the purchase price (for example, 85%) and keep the balance as a restocking charge, you refund only 85% of the GST/HST you first collected. You would issue a credit note, or the customer would issue a debit note, for the amount of the GST/HST you refunded.

If you and the customer are GST/HST registrants, you can choose not to refund or credit the customer the GST/HST that was previously paid. You may wish to forgo the GST/HST refund if you have already sent us the tax and the customer has already claimed an ITC. In this case, you refund the amount without including the GST/HST that the customer first paid. You and your customer do not have to make any adjustments on your GST/HST returns.

HST paid or payable on your purchases to supply these gifts as long as they relate to commercial activities. Where the purpose of the gift is to promote making an exempt supply, you will not be able to claim an ITC to recover the GST/HST paid or payable on any purchases related to that gift.

Promotional allowances

Promotional allowances are amounts given by a manufacturer to a retailer to promote goods purchased from the manufacturer, exclusively for resale by the retailer in its commercial activities. The promotional allowance is not considered to be payment for a supply made by the retailer to the manufacturer providing the allowance. In other words, the retailer is not considered to have provided a promotional service. However, there may be tax implications depending on how the allowance is paid, credited, or allowed as a discount.

Example

A manufacturer sells 12 cases of shampoo to a retailer in Manitoba, two of which are given free to promote the goods. The deduction appears on the face of the invoice, and the GST applies on the reduced price. You calculate the sale price as follows:

12 cases at $10 each
$120
Less 2 free cases
(20)
Subtotal before tax
$100
Plus GST ($100 × 5%)
5
Retailer pays
$105

If the allowance is given as a discount or credit against the price of a previous purchase for which tax has been charged or collected, the manufacturer has a choice of either:

  • giving the credit without adjusting the tax; or
  • adjusting the tax and issuing a credit or debit note.

For more information, see Returned goods.

If the allowance is given as a discount against the goods at the time of purchase, the GST/HST applies on the reduced price.

If the payment or credit is not a price reduction attributable to any invoice, it is considered to be a manufacturers’ rebate. For more information, see Manufacturers’ rebates.

Spoiler
   @MajorPainage   At this point had you been issued a refund without the hst you would have to apply for an hst refund directly from the CRA for the $6.50 paid in hst.

@MajorPainage 

 

I agree with you that if a refund is granted, the sales tax should also be refunded. Have you tried again asking for it?

 

If all else fails, provide documentation to the CRA supporting that a refund was issued and the CRA might send a refund cheque.

@MajorPainage Sorry that you faced this, but hopefully, your new provider will suit your needs better, and you will enjoy the service without any issues.

@MajorPainage 

Well that would explain why public mobile cancelled your refund and would need to remit the HST to the CRA for services provided.

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

@maximum_gato   Sure I moved to a new service with a new phone but I kept this account active on my old phone till the this month to use up my service.

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

@Anonymous  No autopay was off but they took the full amount anyway.

@MajorPainage 

As i recall you had an issue with your sim card not matching in your account and you were unhappy with your service and decided to bail to another provider before you gave public mobile a chance to rectify the situation. Thus under the rules laid out by the WCC public mobile was under no obligation to refund you your money.....so call the snitch line at the CRA and report public mobile for tax fraud if thats your issue this time......BTW i think you owe @Anonymous  an apology for the comments directed at him the last time you were on the community....of course thats JMHO.

 

You have yourself a nice day now.....

Anonymous
Not applicable

@MajorPainage wrote:

Actually to be honest, they offered the refund on July 1st, and on July 24th, they reversed it.  Don't understand why they would reverse it and take the money when I received no service for it.  That alone is fraud.


Maybe the account renewed with autopay. I don't know the outcome of your previous adventure. Or forgetting that they had autopay on.

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

@maximum_gato  the problem with that is I received no service so that's why I was given the refund.

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

Actually to be honest, they offered the refund on July 1st, and on July 24th, they reversed it.  Don't understand why they would reverse it and take the money when I received no service for it.  That alone is fraud.

@MajorPainage 

Since public mobile is a prepaid service and it clearly states their are no refunds yet public mobile has as a gesture of good will agreed to issue a refund you would think you would be happy with the refund issued. I know for certain other providers would steadfastly refuse to do so.....As far as pm is concerned they delivered the product and the service so they are probably remitting the HST to the government as per the law (I assume!)

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

Sure it says Prepaid services are not refundable, but they did offer a refund.

MajorPainage
Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

We CRA's view is that it should have been returned.  If it's for a credit on a future payment, it still would have to be credited and then charged back at the time of the future purchase.  It's part of keeping records and dates proper.

Refunds are highly unlikely anyway because of this line in the terms of service:

 

"Prepaid service credits are non-refundable."

Anonymous
Not applicable

@MajorPainage wrote:

The CRA specialist I talked with went though the paperwork and stated that there is no legislation stating any company can retain the HST for services when fully refunded.


Laws are almost always designed to be prohibitive, not permissive. (At least in liberal democracies.) It's not going to say you can keep the HST. If it says anything, it would say you can not keep the HST. In the absence of a prohibition, there's nothing to stop them from keeping the HST.

 

But I would agree...you should get all your money back. It would seem to be the right thing to do.

gblackma
Mayor / Maire

@MajorPainage if you are referring to a credit to your account. Then there is no fraud, since when its applied, you aren't charged HST. 

If its a refund to your credit card, then you should get back the full amount including the HST charged. Stay safe.  

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