Blacklisted for non-payment

[anthony1987]

Hi all , the phone I'm currently using with Public Mobile , my friend gave me. He previously had it on Freedom Mobile , but he switched providers and got another free phone on a tab with a different company . He still had a device balance owing but isn't paying it.

What I'm worried about , is if this phone I'm using will get blacklisted for non-payment making it unusable , or not. I see mixed answers, some say it will get blacklisted, others say it will just go to collections.

Does anyone have any experience with this , whether Freedom mobile will blacklist or not? Thanks

[computergeek541]

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@Mikebrads wrote:

You're all horrible for answering a question you don't truly know the answer for .. YES THE PHONE WILL GET BLACKLISTED!!! All phones are unlocked these days and all companies blacklisting phones for non payment.

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This isn't accurate.  The national database of lost and stolen devices was never intended for such purposes.  Also, whlie some carriers have practicing blocking such devices,  some other carriers have made clear statements that phones will not be blocked from use over account payment issues.

[Mikebrads]

You're all horrible for answering a question you don't truly know the answer for .. YES THE PHONE WILL GET BLACKLISTED!!! All phones are unlocked these days and all companies blacklisting phones for non payment. 

edited by computergeek541: removed inappropritae comment that is a violation of terms of service

[srlawren]

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@Caddy1 wrote:

The way I see it, if your on a 24 month TAB with a carrier and you have made tab payments, that phone is just as much yours as it is the cell phone companies......if they wanna blacklist that phone then they should pay you back the TAB amount you have already paid.....just sayin

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@Caddy1 I'm not sure of the legalities there, but think of a car loan as a rough analogy.  If you've been making payments for 3 years of your 6 year car loan and suddenly stop, the bank is going to repossess your car.  I don't believe they refund you any of the money you've given them to that point in time.  

[Caddy1]

The way I see it, if your on a 24 month TAB with a carrier and you have made tab payments, that phone is just as much yours as it is the cell phone companies......if they wanna blacklist that phone then they should pay you back the TAB amount you have already paid.....just sayin

[raloebbb]

lol these guys are all stupid. i've personally worked for the fraud departments at both rogers & bell & i can assure you that he's right.. if the info DOES check out & is correct.. a blacklisting of the device will not be placed. ant you're %100 percent right & solved your own issue  i'm certain of. 

[computergeek541]

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@anthony1987 wrote:

Honestly that was my understanding , based on the wireless code. I have seen Fido Rogers say that as well , that they do not blacklist for collection activities , only if requested due to being lost or stolen , I saw that about bell too that they blacklisted for non-payment but had to replace the phone. Just wasn't sure about freedom as they are a newer company , not sure how they work

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From what I recall, when the Wireless Code came into effect, Wind Mobile did not adjust tabs so that reduced in exact same amounts each month, but rather instead kept up the 10% of your bill nonsense for a considerable time.  I considered that to be non-compliance.  At least they do that properly now. 

Then, there were cases at Wind/Freedom where they would cancel someone's service without noitce, and for no valid reason at all.  I was one of those people who got caught up in the Pay-Your-Way controversy.  For those not in the know, Freedom had a $0/month unlimited incoming plan at one point. The catch was that you had to top up your account every once-in-a-while  to keep it active. They also allowed you to transfer up to $150 to another customer's prepaid account as a gift or so that you could use it on it another of your accounts, friend's account, or family member's account.  They used to be fine with it if you did that, but out of nowhere, and out-of-the-blue, they one day decided that if you transfered more than $100, they would unilaterally cancel your account without notice.  Instead of changing the limit to $99, they would just close your account on you.  And then, when you complained about it, they were once again in non-compliance with Wireless Code by taken an unusual amount of time to reactivate the service.

There have also been reports about Wind/Freedom that they refuse to let you port out (sometimes) unless you first paid off the WINDtab (or whatever they're calling it now).  Once again, I saw that as non-compliance with Wireless Code and number portability rules since the Tab balance is not actually due until they bill you for it, and even then, there's a grace period before you're supposed to have to pay.  But nope, they would sometimes force you to pay before allowing the port out, even though the customer was not even past due.

So your guess is as good as mine when it comes to Freedom Mobile's blacklisting, but from my past experiences, they have a history of having policies less customer-friendly than some other carriers.

[lat34hat34]

It won't get blacklisted, as it is not a stolen phone and as long as it's unlocked, it'll work. Some companies, like Virgin Mobile, have the ability to make your phone not work if you have a plan with them but don't pay and try to switch without unlocking the phone.

What your friend will get is horrible credit. Not paying an unpaid balance is setting your credit up for disaster, meaning that trying to get a house, a car, even an apartment will be a nightmare. Credit checks are super common with most of the things we need, like housing, getting a phone plan (minus places like Public), getting a car, and so on. Right now, I have $183 and change left on my iPhone SE with Virgin, which I'm paying off and then cutting ties with them. If I just suddenly didn't pay it, my phone wouldn't be blacklisted but my already bad credit would probably sink down to the low 400's.

Like I said, if the phone is already unlocked, I don't believe it'll be blaclisted. However, that's pretty much stealing from Fredom, which is messed up.

Best of luck.

[anthony1987]

Honestly that was my understanding , based on the wireless code. I have seen Fido Rogers say that as well , that they do not blacklist for collection activities , only if requested due to being lost or stolen , I saw that about bell too that they blacklisted for non-payment but had to replace the phone. Just wasn't sure about freedom as they are a newer company , not sure how they work

[computergeek541]

As the Wireless Code was mentioned earlier, I see carriers blacklisting for account payment reasons as a violation of that policy.  It was intened to be used for lost or stolen devices reported by the customer (or for cases when someone robs or shoplifts from the store or warehouse).

At least one carrier (Fido/Rogers) has comes out and said that they do not blacklist for reasons of non-payment, and that that is what the billing, accounts receivable, and collections processes are for.

I've read about at least one situation in which a carrier (Bell, I believe) blacklisted a phone for non-payment.  This was challenged by the phone user and I believe that the CCTS ordered (or Bell may have volunteered the resolution) that a replacement be provided to the customer.

I think that the whole national blacklist is a farce anyway.  I'm sure it does diminish the value of lost/stolen devices. However, I believe the real reason the carriers went along with it is because it make consumers afraid to buy used devices.  This means more foot traffic into stores and/or people renewing contracts/tabs through them more often.

[srlawren]

@anthony1987 I don't mean to be judgemental but your friend is not being very smart in ignoring debts.  As mentioned, it will really mess up his credit rating.  May not matter to him now but chances are it will down the road.  

Whether this is fraud, theft, etc--I'm not sure.  But a phone tab is basically an interest-free purchase loan--it's still a loan and by signing the contract you're agreeing to pay it back.  If you went to <insert your favourite car brand here> and purchase a <insert your favourite vehicle> for say $50,000 on a loan and then stopped paying it along the way, the creditor has every right to track you down and repossess the vehicle.  They actually have a lein on it, and their name is on the registration and insurance document alongside your own until the loan is completely repaid.  I don't know that phone carriers register a lein on a phone but the concept is the same.  Why is it okay to not repay a loan on a phone and expect to keep it?  EDIT: I'll answer my own semi-rhetorical question--it isn't, really.  

[Tarah-gve]

Black listed is only when someone steals your phone and you call in to your carrier to have phone black listed using the IMEI of the device.

Your friend not paying wont have anything to do with the phone it will only affect his credit and yes go to collections.

[darkstar107]

Your friend isn't being very smart. If it goes to collections that could really hurt his credit in the future.  I have a sister that had a $5 outstanding balance a bill that she didn't know about.  She moved without knowing about it so didn't get any bills for the outstanding balance.  Needless to say her credit was suffering for a long time because of it and prevented her from buying a house when she wanted to.

[anthony1987]

Wow .. so quick to judge .. I kind of wonder how much you know about Telco companies. I am not an accessory to fraud as this is a collection issue , I was just given  a phone plain and simple. By rights they can't do anything based on the wireless code, which is legally binding , besides collection activities , which is canceling service and referring to a collections agency. They will not want the phone back. What they will do is sell that to a collections agencythey so they do actually essentially get their money and the agency will get their money and turn from that person so no fraud at all so quick to jump 

[will13am]

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@anthony1987 wrote:

Yes , I know your right about the friend , I do however know as I've seen his contact that it is in his name , everything is legit on there , nothing fake.

So that being said , I don't see that they could flag for fraud as his info is real . Ultimately it's a collection issue , not fraud , and from what I read in the wireless code , blacklist is only to be used for stolen or lost phones , not collection activities.

They will refer his account to collections ,but blacklisting would be a violation of the wireless code if I understand it right

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I will say it again, this is Freedom's merchandise and they can do whatever they want to it.  I am sure they want it back due to non payment.  They don't have the phone in their possession.  Your friend is not going to hand it back to them.  So, is it not a lost or stolen phone as far as Freedom is concerned?  Avoid the confirmation bias, face reality, this phone will stop working soon.  If I were you, I would give it back to your "friend".  You are an assessory to fraud.  The phone is trackable and is tracked.

[anthony1987]

Yes , I know your right about the friend , I do however know as I've seen his contact that it is in his name , everything is legit on there , nothing fake.

So that being said , I don't see that they could flag for fraud as his info is real . Ultimately it's a collection issue , not fraud , and from what I read in the wireless code , blacklist is only to be used for stolen or lost phones , not collection activities.

They will refer his account to collections ,but blacklisting would be a violation of the wireless code if I understand it right

[will13am]

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@anthony1987 wrote:

I did some digging around and came across the wireless code. From what I gather they they cant blacklist for collection activities, only if lost or stolen.

Just trying to confirm if I'm reading this right , again ,any insight would be appreciated ,thank you.

302. While WSPs cannot use the National Blacklist of Lost and Stolen Devices (the
Blacklist) for debt collection purposes, they can place the international mobile equipment identity (IMEI) numbers of devices stolen from their retail outlets or
those associated with genuine cases of subscription fraud on the Blacklist to help
deter the resale of those devices. The Commission notes the success of the
Blacklist since its launch in September 2013 and considers it to be a valuable tool
to help consumers safely participate in the second-hand device market. The
Commission commends the CWTA’s efforts in its administration of the Blacklist
and encourages WSPs to continue supporting the Blacklist going forward.

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This phone will be blacklist, guaranteed.  It belongs to the carrier and they can do what they like with their phone.  Carriers do use the blacklist in situations like this.  Google search Kijiji phone sale scams. 

[will13am]

@anthony1987, choose your friends a little more wisely.  Sorry to say, this person is a fraud artist, nothing more.  You say he is purposely walking away from debt and then going to a different company and getting more debt.  His name, assuming he actually used his real name is mud with Freedom.  I don't know how one gets more debt while having bad credit.  It would not surprise me if fake names are involved here.  While technically you are not in possession of stolen merchandise, it might as well be as there was no intent to pay for it.  Council your friend about being a better person.  He can't continue to eat his meal and not pay for it.

[anthony1987]

I did some digging around and came across the wireless code. From what I gather they they cant blacklist for collection activities, only if lost or stolen.

Just trying to confirm if I'm reading this right , again ,any insight would be appreciated ,thank you.

302. While WSPs cannot use the National Blacklist of Lost and Stolen Devices (the
Blacklist) for debt collection purposes, they can place the international mobile equipment identity (IMEI) numbers of devices stolen from their retail outlets or
those associated with genuine cases of subscription fraud on the Blacklist to help
deter the resale of those devices. The Commission notes the success of the
Blacklist since its launch in September 2013 and considers it to be a valuable tool
to help consumers safely participate in the second-hand device market. The
Commission commends the CWTA’s efforts in its administration of the Blacklist
and encourages WSPs to continue supporting the Blacklist going forward.

[anthony1987]

Hope it doesn't come down to that , it is a good phone , Xperia xa2 Ultra, it has one of the best cameras out there a 23 megapixel camera . I already asked him about the balance left. It's still over $400 , way more then I could afford. If that's the case , my only option would be to sell it internationally outside of North America.

As far as I know though, they can't blacklist unless requested if lost or stolen , but don't know if I'm wrong. 

As for it being stolen property , I wouldn't say it is technically , as it will go on his credit report , and will I'm sure eventually be settled. The collection agency buys the debt from freedom , then collects the payment from the debtor.

Anyways thanks for your answers and I would appreciate any other insight into the situation or something similar thanks again

[Ba]

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@anthony1987 wrote:
...

Does anyone have any experience with this , whether Freedom mobile will blacklist or not? Thanks

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I think ultimately it will be blacklisted even if it may go to collection first.If you like the phone and the balance is small enough to make it worth keeping the phone, why don’t you pay it off yourself and keep the phone? If the phone is not worth the unpaid balance, just use it untill it gets blacklisted then get a new one!

[Dunkgirl]

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@anthony1987 wrote:

Hi all , the phone I'm currently using with Public Mobile , my friend gave me. He previously had it on Freedom Mobile , but he switched providers and got another free phone on a tab with a different company . He still had a device balance owing but isn't paying it.

What I'm worried about , is if this phone I'm using will get blacklisted for non-payment making it unusable , or not. I see mixed answers, some say it will get blacklisted, others say it will just go to collections.

Does anyone have any experience with this , whether Freedom mobile will blacklist or not? Thanks

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Being worried about it won't change anything. Be prepared for the worst and enjoy it while it still works. Regardless of anyone's thoughts, opinion, beliefs or insider information of freedom's policy on black listing a phone there is no guarantee things will not change or that they will even enforce it on your friends device. The only thing that we know for sure is the phone was not paid for, has not been black listed yet and any moment may stop working.

But IMO it should be blacklisted, its basically stolen properlty. It's a good idea to have a back-up phone anyways, you can get a cheap phone for much under $50. if you really like the phone and the price is right, why not pay it off, or part of it and maybe your friend can pitch the rest to prevent the account from going to real collections. I don't know the entire story or how much is left on a bill but I know most people who mess up their credit history regret it later.