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Mental Health

imm1304
Retired Oracle / Oracle Retraité

Hello everyone!  

 

Mental health is important in every stage of life.  As part of the annual, Bell Lets Talk campaign, Canada is talking about mental health and working towards alleviating stigma. We can all be part of the solution and the support network. I hope we can all understand and support the needs of those around us.  Take a moment and be considerate of those potentially suffering in silence.  

 

Following is a video from the Center for Addiction and Mental Health titled "The Power of Talk".  

 

24 REPLIES 24

youbme
Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

@Martin wrote:

Hi @youbme,

As my last contribution to this thread, i don't believe that mental illness doesn't exist.

Though I do believe that psychiatry and the writing of scripts are each an industry, I made mention of Thomas Szasz as a counterweight, to encourage food for thought.

In my career, and I believe that I am quite open-minded, I interacted with many individuals whom I regarded as mentally ill. They did not live in our society; instead, they inhabited a bubble of their own, created solely in their minds.


Well said!

 

To be clear, my intention of bringing in Illich's work is I find him helpful anytime I find myself thinking the "solution" is only to build new institutions or fix the existing ones - it helps to think outside the box. Though, with any of these scholars, we have to be careful to take their words in a dogmatic way.

Martin
Legend
Legend

Hi @youbme,

As my last contribution to this thread, i don't believe that mental illness doesn't exist.

Though I do believe that psychiatry and the writing of scripts are each an industry, I made mention of Thomas Szasz as a counterweight, to encourage food for thought.

In my career, and I believe that I am quite open-minded, I interacted with many individuals whom I regarded as mentally ill. They did not live in our society; instead, they inhabited a bubble of their own, created solely in their minds.

youbme
Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

@Martin, the work of Thomas Szasz reminds me a bit of the work of Ivan Illich on the dangers of schooling - his seminal work "Deschooling Society". Specifically, he saw the institutions of education and health (later he wrote "Medical Nemesis") as potentially dehumanising as they have consistently taken away our human ability to discern what we need, how to procure our needs, etc... In a similar vein, it seems that Szasz had a healthy concern of the power of social orders - in his case how 'pharmacracy is the rule of medicine' (I just glanced at Wikipedia for his arguments) thus creating a dogmatic attude that the solution is always and only found through pharmceutical options (my interpretation).

 

In the end of the day, sanity and normalcy are relative in society, and the definitions we create as individuals are also derived from the myriad social relations and experiences we have encountered. At the same time, I am an individual with freedom to choose and act with responsibility - and I believe this is where mental health cannot be isolated as solely an individual or social issue.

Martin
Legend
Legend
Hi @imm1304,

You're quite welcome.

As I said previously, you will be challenged upon reading his beliefs and his examples/defences of them.

Cheers.

imm1304
Retired Oracle / Oracle Retraité

Very interesting approach to dealing with the manifestations of mental illenss there.  I will find the book and spend some time reading.  Thanks for the stimulating posts. @Martin

Martin
Legend
Legend

Hello,

In keeping with today's post of 1:27 pm ET that I would post more if the post were to elicit any replies, I'll give 2 examples of Thomas Szasz's position that mental illness does not exist. Considering the very real possibility of timing out, I fear that I will have insufficient time to properly explain his position. That said, example #1 is offered as food for thought.

Let's say that there is an individual who enjoys killing animals. Most people would regard him as a sadist and therefore mentally ill. If he were to find employment in an abbatoir, rendering cows unconscious with a sledgehammer blow to the head, would he be seen as a sadist? No! He would be valued as a very productive employee, who enjoyed his work. Quite possibly, he would be featured as the employee of the month, considering his strong work ethic. Outside the abbatoir, he's a sadist, but inside he's a valued worker. His being valued is due to situationally appropriate behavior inside the abbatoir. It was Szasz's contention that, for those labelled as mentally ill, all they needed was a new environment whose demands matched the presentation of the supposed mental illness, and they would no longer be labelled as ill.

Martin
Legend
Legend
Hi @imm1304,

Whether you dismiss or accept his position, I guarantee that you will find his texts to be thought-provoking.

As a professor, in addition to being a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, he knew how to profer a position, and then prove it with facts. With regard to facts, I must add the caveat that a fact today may become just a theory tomorrow. That said, I encourage you to read some of his seminal works in order to challenge what you regard as givens.

Good reading!

imm1304
Retired Oracle / Oracle Retraité

Hi @Martin!

 

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Thoma Szasz.  However, I would love to learn what intriguing stance he took.. thank you for pointing him out.  I am very much immersed in the clinical side of things and only get taught in the passing about the psychiatry.. mostly as protocols and referrals.  But, I find the subject matter fascinating to say the least.  

Martin
Legend
Legend

Hi @imm1304,

If you're going to mention the DSM and protocols, I feel obliged to refer to Thomas Szasz, as a counter-weight. He died in 2012, age 92. Though he was a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst, he spent his career advocating against psychiatry, and authoring texts supportive of his views.

As part of my degree studies, I took a course in psychopathology, where I was first introduced to his antipsychiatry position. If his name is unfamiliar to you, it's most probably due to a difference in age.

His core belief was that mental illness does not exist. To know why, it's best if interested readers were to google him, rather than my stating them here, and possibly timing out.

If this post elicits any replies, I will post more.

Cheers.

imm1304
Retired Oracle / Oracle Retraité

Very interesting discussion here.  

 

I favour an objective clinical approach and after ruling out physical causes and substance abuse/od causes, follow the DSM criteria. Thats what I have been taught a number of times during my training. 

 

Things get complicated because most often we dont focus on circumstances and other contributing factors and jump straight to treatment dictated by the protocols.  The human being becomes a patient number with series of protocols to follow and it can be very unsettling for the patient to navigate this system.  

 

Besides the obvious neurodevelopmental, psychotic and schizophrenic disorders, the vast majority of relatively less serious mental illnesses have a very strong socio-cultural component to varying degrees.  Having an inclusive and stigma-free society and a robust social support system would go a long way towards managing and alleviating the suffering of the ones struggling with the illness.  

 

Things tend to get worse for the mental health departments becuase the funding/staffing is frequently driven by utilitarian principles.  However, we have made progress as a society and continue to move in the right direction overall.  

youbme
Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

Oh yes, Alinsky is truly a classic! I was introduced to his work during my undergraduate years, I was particularly involved with student/labour coalition building on campus. I had to read him for a sociology course back then and I always had mixed feelings about his approach - practical and useful for strategy, but missing some of the philsophic questions of social change. I actually found Poor People's Movements by Frances Fox Piven and Richard Cloward to be more to my tastes - I liked their self-critique approach to understanding 'why some movements succeed and others fail'...

 

Anyway, get some rest @Martin - to be continued Smiley Happy

Martin
Legend
Legend

Hi @youbme,

As a sociologist, you may be interested in reading "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky. He was a very creative community organizer, who founded the Industrial Areas Foundation, primarily focused on southside Chicago. I believe that Obama learned community organizing, at least in part, at the foundation.

If memory serves me correctly, the preface to "Rules for Radicals" contains the following from Thomas Paine, one of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence:
Let them call me rebel,

And welcome,
I feel no concern from it.
But I should suffer the misery of devils,
Were I to make a whore of my soul.

 

To express it another way: If I am not for myself, who is?

Martin
Legend
Legend
Hi @youbme,

Food for thought indeed! Thank you for your very informative and reasoned reply.

Under normal circumstances, I would continue the discussion. Unfortunately, I pulled another all-nighter, and I am thus unable to properly express myself for the time being.

If this thread is still active on the weekend, I look forward to contributing to it.

Cheers.

youbme
Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

Hi @Martin,

 

Certainly lots of food for thought - and I appreciate that you noticed the wording of my comment.

 

I apologize for the long reply, but I have a few thoughts on this matter - especially since you mentioned social movements.

 

First, I will say that my comment regarding 'social expectations' was partly made as an indictment to how mental health is often evaluated. I certainly agree with you that what matters most is one's own assessment of onself - peace in my own being is the most important. However, social expectations cannot be entirely divorced from the individual - as we are also social beings, becoming ourselves through the social relations we encounter during our lives.

 

I have always had mixed feelings about how society (in this sense, I refer to the US and Canada primarily - as different as they can be from each other and by state/province) relates to individuals (spoiler: I'm a sociologist). When we look at the history of social change, it has often begun from those viewed as deviant, mentally ill, irrational, etc., and even the study of such behaviour has changed significantly since WWII - more towards a degree of sympathy towards collective action that understands how positive social change can be an outcome, rather than viewing those on the periphery in need of correction to fit in or to be removed from society. What is important to highlight with the examples of the Suffragettes or the American Civil Rights Movement, is that they were groups of people who recognised shared grievances against mainstream society. Through those grievances, they organised within institutions as well as through grassroots activism to change societal culture and demand that those in power recognise them as human beings with the same rights for civic and political participation as white men.

 

In the case of health social movements - which I would classify mental health advocacy under that broad umbrella - there is a real struggle to properly examine what the injustice is. Today, there are still significant societal expectations that I adhere to - even when I may not fully agree to them. Many of these informal rules can make one feel isolated and out-of-place, and may contribute to mental illness. One example is the emphasis we put on experts and credentials, such social value towards medical professionals often leads individuals to avoid questioning or contradicting the views of those with such credentials. When one chooses to question such expertise, they may be viewed as "deviant" or "crazy" - then comes back the question to your original comment, if I am at peace with myself and my views, it matters little what society throws at me, otherwise such social norms can lead one to significant challenges.

 

So, yes, awareness about mental health illness is important, creating spaces to discuss one's challenges in their eveyday lives is also crucial. In terms of advocacy, I find that the line between "corrective" and "transformative" measures is dicey in mental health, and certainly there are different views on the matter within the profession as well as among movement participants. Ideally, we should strive to support people in transformative learning processes that encourage growth and understanding. Simultaneously, there are short-term needs to correct behaviour to be able to make through everyday routines - but those should not be the end-goal in my opinion.

 

OK, I realise I've gone on a few tangents, so I'll stop here... food for thought?

Martin
Legend
Legend

Hi @youbme,

You made an interesting statement with respect to mental health and social expectations.

For the most part, I don't agree that, in 2016, there is a connection between the two. As society slowly progresses, meeting social expectations has become less important, and being at peace with oneself more important.

If meeting social expectations were the chief determinant, then the Suffragettes of the very early 1900s could be seen as mentally ill. After all, they were women seeking the vote. Opposing them were men who sincerely believed that women were too emotional to bear the responsibility of voting. Equally, Blacks in the 1960s USA could be seen as mentally ill for wanting equality under the law. Opposing them was systemic discrimination, based on the ill-founded belief that Blacks were inherently inferior and thus unworthy of equality.

I prefer to view good mental health as being at peace with oneself. Of course, there are sociopaths and psychopaths who are at peace, but I'm focusing on the majority. As long as one doesn't have severe mood swings, intrusive thoughts, waking nightmares, or neurotic obsessive-compulsive habits, I regard that individual as grounded and healthy. Of course, I'm certain that I have left a lot out, but I trust that I have said enough to provide food for thought.

Cheers.

youbme
Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

Thank you for starting this post @imm1304. These days I feel that I know more people than previously who are dealing with significant mental health issues - possibly because it is more acceptable to talk about it. What is hard to comprehend is how fragile the balance is between "order" and "disorder" - today I might have all my senses in line with social expectations, but who knows how I will be tomorrow.

 

Spaces to talk and share our perspectives with those who we trust is truly a human need and can do wonders for someone struggling with their mental health - as well as for the whole of society.

imm1304
Retired Oracle / Oracle Retraité

Hi @homer!

 

Don't hesitate to start interesting discussions and see how the wonderful Community members chime in. 🙂

Martin
Legend
Legend
Hi @homer,

You're quite welcome!

I truly hope that you always find the degree of support that you're seeking.

Cheers.

homer
Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

I log in and chat with PM community if I feel lonely - Thank you for being supportive here 🙂

imm1304
Retired Oracle / Oracle Retraité

You're welcome @Jeremy_M, I figured we could use the forum to put the message out there. 

 

Well said @Martin and @7789849803.  Glad to see your thoughtful comments.  

Martin
Legend
Legend
Hi 778,

I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

Cheers.

Totally agree with you there, @Martin. Another reason is that mental health issues are relatively more intangible, and so more inscrutable to society at large. The unknown danger is always feared more than the known danger.

 

Thankfully, society everywhere seems to be evolving to become more tolerant of and compassionate towards those of us facing mental health issues.

Martin
Legend
Legend

Hi @imm1304,

Thank you very much for posting the YouTube video.

It's regrettable that, if someone is known to have a mental health problem, one is often treated as a pariah, with accompanying ill-informed and hurtful remarks. On the other hand, if one has cancer, one is treated with compassion and sympathy.

I've often thought of why a distinction is made between the two. With a cancer victim, people know that one will improve or not; there is nothing to personally fear.

With a mental health victim, people fear that one will act out, possibly harming those around him/her. That is ill-informed. I believe that, at root, is a defence mechanism that our ancient ancestors unconsciously employed to shy away from possible danger, and thus continue living. That said, with a plethora of knowledge on the Internet, there's absolutely no reason that those who have mental health problems should continue to be victimized by ignorance and stigma.

Jeremy_M
Retraité / Retired
Retraité / Retired

Hi @imm1304,

 

Very thoughtful of you! I agree with you as well "Mental health is important in every stage of life".

 

Thanks for sharing 🙂

 

Jeremy

 

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