cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Reply
Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@dabr wrote:

would replace the system we have now firstly by replacing the income generated by income taxes with something else, then slowly replace the income generated by things like red light cameras and photo radar with other things too - and at the same time reduce government waste by cutting down on budgets which would in turn reduce the need for taxes such as income tax and photo radar etc. Until there is change, I won't change my opinion until change occurs and if it is then proven not to work - only then would I consider changing my opinion on total freedom being the best public policy.

 

@villellamcmeans   So to me that's interesting that you speak about 'replacing income taxes etc' with something else...what exactly would that something else be, and what if in your 'new system' others object to the new form of something else?  Just curious what this 'something else' is?

 
 
Tags (0)
 

@dabr  The example I am thinking about is not mine it's just a ideal, like the golden rule or ten commandments, simply put the ideal is to deregulate - this ideal is a Libertarian ideal from the book Atlas Shruged by Ayn Rand.  By deregualting the cost of governing automatically decreases because for less expenses associated with regulating and prosecuting the breaking of rules, similar to how ending the prohibition of cannibis and alcohol and gambling etc reduces the cost of governing - deregulation can be applied to everthing, I won't bother arguing every possible outcome, but history shows degulation works and common sense and logic supports this too as the examples of gambling and drugs being deregulated already has enough positive results to prove it.

 

Degulation and cutting expenditures and reducing the size of government at every level is how I support reducing the costs of governing, as for replacing the income generated through income taxes - I support taxing things that harm the environment or harm health or taxing usage of things, that way it taxing things that the government wants to reduce anyways and lets people choose whether to continue using the taxed things or not.  An example is taxes on unhealthy products such as pop etc or gas etc. Either way I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a start in the right direction of letting people choose what taxes to pay and not pay, for example if cars are taxed then I can choose to not drive to avoid the tax  - and this encourages environmental protection which most governments claim they support.

 

Taxing income just doesn't make sense, because it's discourages the generation of more income which should be everybodies right to pursue higher incomes - instead of discouraging people for being successful at earning money, the government should be discouraging pollution etc.

 

Anyways, maybe the government will have less money or more, but that doesn't matter because encouraging freedom is the main thing - so no I don't have numbers to argue what effect this or that will have, but just like any idea those problems will be solved through trial and error, and that's nothing to worry about because it's not like our goverments don't make enough errors and excuses now as it is anyways.

 

I encourage anyone to go to the Libertarian Party of Canada website for more details of this ideal:

 

www.libertarian.ca

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@z10user4 wrote:

@villellamcmeans wrote:

@dabr  Of course, I didn't mean you when talked about shaming, I was talking about @z10user4  and others like that. We obviously don't agree, I don't have problem with that. On your point about free speach, I of course support it without the caveats, even @z10user4  can ridicule and say whatever he wants respecfully or not - I just don't agree with ridiculing/shaming to get a point across.

 

 


 @villellamcmeans 

So...uh...your first post on this thread...you call the police pigs and everybody else sheep. That's respectful? That's not ridiculing? That's not shaming?

If you're gonna dish it, then you gotta be able to take it.


No it's not, saying the truth is not disrespecful or ridiculing, it's simpling saying what's true - most police are pigs and bullies maybe not all but the media is full of cell phone camera proof for all that believe they're never wrong or that they're something to be worshiped like above human instead of them being just human like the rest of us.

 

You want people to do what you want no matter if they like it or not just because you say they have to or they have to be punished or leave your society - yeah that sounds like sheep to me, it's not shaming to say so.

 

I gotta take it to dish it? That sounds childish like he started it first or I know you are but what am I? I don't find any value in any of your arguments on this issue at at, read your own posts and see for yourself.

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@z10user4 wrote:

 @villellamcmeans 

You can't be saying pay per use on one hand and then talk about insurance on the other. Insurance is very similar to paying taxes. If you don't pay the premiums then you have no coverage. Dead again. Or at least broke. It would be my opinion and perception that far more civilized countries have public health care. But I don't have stats.

 

Oh so you're in the private health care delivery business? Do tell. Seriously curious.

 

Rights and freedoms...for slave owners. Uh huh.

 

I say the shoot me in response to your revolution thought.

 

I am not ok with you not paying your fair share.

 

Those people of similar ideals then have kids. The kids don't subscribe to your utopia and rebel as kids do and just take what they can get for nothing. They're getting a nice free ride. Why would they gravitate away? What do you do?

 

Now talking about taxation methods I don't pretend to have all the answers. Just like all my writings all this time. I do often wonder about consumption taxes though. No one likes income tax. But it's what we have.


I support consumption tax, but it has to be on things that are not nessecities to human life, like not taxing air or water but taxing sugar or trans fats etc. At least it's a reasonable choice to let people choose to consume or not consume, instead of the current choice of earn income or not earn income.

 

I don't work in the insurance or health care industries, there's no need for you to be sarcastic and assume I am even though no where in my posts did I ever claim to be. I've lived in other countries where private insurance is common, I've lived in China and Hong Kong and Singapore, I've tried enough other systems to know what I like and to form an opinion on what system I support and you have confidence that my health care needs will be met if needed.

 

Slave owners? You're the one dictating that others have to do want everyone else does or else face consequences like leaving your society, while I say let them choose for themselves without any pressure from you or others - your system sounds more like a form of slavery than mine, at least mine has more free choice. Isn't income tax more like slavery than not taxing income, you want to take what others have worked for through a tax on their income/production, sounds like a lesser form of slavery to me than letting people keep what they've worked for.

 

Is your slave owner comment a shot at the american revolution? Because the american revolution was about taxes not slaves, the american civil war is more about slaves. Or you want to criticize something about america not having freedom ideals when they had slaves at the same time? Well if you'd read history the same freedoms ideals were eventually what freed the slaves in america, just because it didn't happen at right away does not mean the ideals were not there.

 

How am I not paying my fair share when I already said I support pay per use? What don't you understand about that? I want to pay for myself, I don't want to pay for you or anyone else, but you want me to pay for you me and everyone too and for everyone else to do the same or force them to.

 

Your shoot me comment is not resonable even in response to my revolution comment, because you assume every revolution to be bloody - history has a few example of unviolent revolutions, and even if you can't find them I never mentioned any violence anyways.

 

Kids will be dependant on others to pay for them as always, when their family stops paying for them they'll have to pay on their own - is that so hard to understand?

 

Why do you assume things I didn't post? Such as I work in private health care or that revolutions mean shooting you? Assuming things that aren't true makes no sense.

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

 @villellamcmeans 

Evidently I'm not writing clearly enough in that nuances that I think I'm saying are not being picked up. Repeatedly throughout this entertaining thread my nuances are being missed and then I try to explain it but then I have to get wordier and then it goes tl;dr...etc

So I'm done.

Cheers

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

@villellamcmeans   Your link to Libertarian Party and reference to Ayn Rand work at least explains to me where you're coming from, although I guess I should have, perhaps, already surmised that.  Sorry, not really interested in reading Ayn Rand, heard enough about her particular philisopy and outlook and find it too self-centred.

 

There are a lot points you have covered in all your posts here, too many to respond to, so going to just respond to a few I think important.

 

I agree with you that government bureacracy could be streamlined, definietly plenty of room to reduce regulations, reducing size of government and creating efficiencies are always needed.  Deregulating redundant and unnecssary red tape and rules would be a good start.  Making things as simple as possible should be a no brainer, but somehow all governments (whilst trying to improve things) end up complicating things further.

 

As to income tax vs consumption tax, personally I prefer that graduated income tax model (that doesn't mean it can't be improved, maybe less brackets).  Generally agree about consumption tax should be on the more harmful aspects of goods and services but as always, the devil is in the details.  However, I don't believe you can achieve the level of security and services that benefits the majority of the population without mandatory income tax.  Hospitals, schools, roads, police, military etc. all require vast amounts of money and human resources which cannot be funded through consumption taxes alone.  Education and healthcare should not be a privilege reserved only for the wealthy as in the past. 

 

As to your posts suggesting that "most police officers are pigs and bullies" is absolutely untrue.  Most police officers are just trying to do their jobs as best as they can under, sometimes, extremely stressful and difficult circumstances.  Of course, there are exceptions  (as in broader society), when a small number don't follow the rules and they should be dealt with properly and held to account.  But just to generally apply a broad brush to any groups of people to me is always really unfair and can lead to dangerous outcomes. 

 

Anyway, I think @z10user4  has already made most of the points much better than I can and so I'll just agree to disagree with you on these points and leave it at that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets

@dabr  Be assured I don't apply any broad brushes to any groups pf people including the govenment, I speak from my own persona observation and experiences, so what you say is untrue is actually the truth as I've witnessed it. To be able to state such is because I've had countless dealings with the police and government and by my count the majority are them are not good people just trying to do their jobs - the recent lawsuits regarding abuse to female officers in the rcmp and military and calgary police and even political interns in states and canada certainly don't suggest it's only a few bad apples. In fact it suggests what we all know is true, there is a toxic culture of abuse and silence within all police forces worldwide, and this the norm not the exception. Anyone can search the internet and news to confirm this, and it's not just being overblown, it's that it's been covered up more before the age of cell phone carmeras and internet.

 

Before anyone thinks I'm wrong, consider that the blind belief that all cops are good is just another broad brush generalization too that many people who have never been arested cling hopefully to - it's the ones who get arrested and who have been held against their will that have the best understanding of exactly how many of the police and government they've dealt with are good or bad. Those who have never been arrested don't have the ability to tell whether most cops are good or not because they've never been put into the situation where they're at the mercy of the police - they just don't know the truth yet.

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets


@villellamcmeans wrote:

@dabr  Be assured I don't apply any broad brushes to any groups pf people including the govenment, I speak from my own persona observation and experiences, so what you say is untrue is actually the truth as I've witnessed it. To be able to state such is because I've had countless dealings with the police and government and by my count the majority are them are not good people just trying to do their jobs - the recent lawsuits regarding abuse to female officers in the rcmp and military and calgary police and even political interns in states and canada certainly don't suggest it's only a few bad apples. In fact it suggests what we all know is true, there is a toxic culture of abuse and silence within all police forces worldwide, and this the norm not the exception. Anyone can search the internet and news to confirm this, and it's not just being overblown, it's that it's been covered up more before the age of cell phone carmeras and internet.

 

Before anyone thinks I'm wrong, consider that the blind belief that all cops are good is just another broad brush generalization too that many people who have never been arested cling hopefully to - it's the ones who get arrested and who have been held against their will that have the best understanding of exactly how many of the police and government they've dealt with are good or bad. Those who have never been arrested don't have the ability to tell whether most cops are good or not because they've never been put into the situation where they're at the mercy of the police - they just don't know the truth yet.


@villellamcmeans  Sorry to hear that you've had unpleasant interactions when dealing with government or the police,  I can see why that would lead to some negative impressions about them.  Yes there are some very disturbing responses by police captured on cell phone videos, but like I said earlier they should always be held to account. However, I still believe these people represent a minority, unfortunately for you, you might have had the bad luck in dealing with more of them than would be normal.  Also agree about what some of the female officers have reported and the culture that is in place at these organisations. Unfortunately, just as in society at large, change is always difficult.  We all get accustomed to doing things a certain way and resent when things change and sometimes feel threatened (unnecessarily mostly).  My guess is like all other progressive advances, these things will eventually also become less part of that culture, obviously changes take time.  But bringing attention and calling it out is the right thing to do of course.  That's how change will, hopefully, happen. 

 

On the whole people working anywhere are just like society at large, a mix of reasonable (majority), and not so reasonable.  Anyway, I wish you better luck in any future dealings with them.

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets

@dabr  I hope change will happen too by exposing what is wrong, hopefully you are right about progressive advances in society, you have alot a faith in society in general - I used to have faith in the government before too and used to vote conservative. Anyways, time will tell, so good luck to you too.