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Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

Re: red light camera tickets


@villellamcmeans wrote:

@z10user4 wrote:

 @villellamcmeans 

Well...have your revolution and line me up and shoot me and dump me in the ocean. Oh but wait. You gotta pay for all those guns and ammo. How is your merry band of non-taxpayers gonna pay for that? Just each yourself "choosing" to buy what you need or you all as a group being then able to pool your money together. But then wait again...who decides what to get and how much each person should pay. Oh but you say each person can choose to pay what they wish. So the guy that "chooses" not to pay anything will be allowed to have and use the things he needs? Or he is welcome to use his home-made sling-shot and have at it. Not bl@@dy likely.

Anyway...not gonna happen so I'm not worried.

 

I put the word - force - into quotes to use your terminology. It's not my terminology.

 

Again...there are lots of things that the government pays for that I have no need for. Then there are fellow citizens on the other side of this governed mass that derive no benefit from things that I do get benefit from. The idea is that it all balances out.

 

I agree with you about colonizing. Although that's old news now. Now it's more about needing resources of whatever nature. ie. oil, water, timber, minerals. Y'know...that stuff to make stuff with.

 

So your magical society will be world-wide? ALL of the people will play along in your magical society? I think the "too simple" is the other way around. I don't think you're thinking it through.

 

Unless you just want to return to the caves and maybe live to 40 and hunt with home-made weapons and cook over an open fire...stuff needs to be paid for. People need to decide who will be the decision makers and how much to pay in the kitty to pay for all the things that are needed in ANY society.

 

I'll bring it back again...it's a whole lot like living in a modern shared-living community. What is called strata in BC. It can be a house on a lot, part of a house or an apartment in a building. The shared things need to be paid for. You are "forced" to pay into that kitty or you get kicked out. It's really the same concept. Things. Need. To be. Paid. For.


@z10user4  Call it what you want, make all the excuses and reasons you want, be as sarcastic as you want - all you're doing is shaming and bullying others into doing what you want because you want things paid for by forcing others to pitch in.

 

Look at any revolution in history and you can quickly separate those that bully and shame others into falling in line, and those that allow others to choose whether to join or not - nazi germany and communist china are examples of not telling people to either do what they tell you or get kicked out as you call it.

 

An example of a free revolution is the american revolution where people could choose to help revolt agaist taxes or not, who paid for that revolution? It was paid for by the people who participated, the ones that revolted paid for their war themselves and won - read some history and you'll see that america was created by a merry band of non-taxpayers who paid for guns/ammo/etc all by themselves of their own free choosing. All your sarcasm is similar to all those who didn't believe in the american revolution and didn't think a merry band of freedom fighters stood a chance agaist the british empire - the british didn't think it was bloody likely either that anyone would dare not pay their forced taxes and not dare to be kicked out of the british empire. The british didn't think the american revolution was gonna happen either and they were not worried either like you.

 

Was the american revolution a magical society? It was indeed magical because most of the world thought like you and couldn't imagine a world without being forced to pay taxes - they couldn't imagine free people could allow free choice on who pays for what services such as all the resources you listed(wood, water, oil, minerals, etc), but it sure worked out for american since they won the revolutionary war and for a time were a magical society where people could not pay taxes and choose for themsleves what to pay for and what not to pay for.

 

The too simple is for those like you who don't know how to think outside of what the government and society groomed you to think, that chaos will reign if we don't have people like you around to bully and shame us into obedience. British society laughed at the americans just like you laugh thinking nobody can survive without rulers telling us what to do and how to live and that without rulers we'd all be cavemen living in the woods around campfires as you say - but look at how america showed their rulers how free cavemen can live and fight.

 

You keep saying society this and society that, fine if you choose to live that way, but when you force/shame/bully others into doing the same, that's when you start to go down the same path as all those facists regimes in human history. You're scared people will stop helping you pay for all the nice things you like in society, you're scared that if you let people choose they won't remain in your sociey - well your society isn't so nice when you know people won't stay or pay when you let them choose for themselves, if your society was so great you could let people choose and they'd choose to pay and stay of their own free will.

 

How's this for a simple concept? You need things to be paid for so you'll resort to force to get what you want, doesn't sound any different than what thieves and bandits say.

 

Things. Need To. Be. Paid. For. But. Through. Forcing. Others.

 

You are probably in the majority that agree with forcing others, but a majority dictating to the minority is still a dictatorship, so why don't you stop bullying others to think like you and just be happy with all the others that do think like you - why can't you leave others to their own free thought? I'm not telling others they have to do or think like me or be kicked out of society or be ridiculed, why is it so important for you to do so? If a bunch leave and stop paying taxes and don't use anything in your society, so what?  You already said you don't care, so if you don't care then you should stop trying to shame and bully others about it.

 

Your comment about strata in bc is interesting, since many consider the strata community a dictatirship anyways - all strata condo will look similar, no hanging christmas wreaths on the doors or any other religious symbols or the strata board will go after you etc.  If you like strata communities then I can see why you don't like anyone to not fall in line with what you want. But I'm not trying to tell you that you have you live in a strata or pay into any society, you on the other hand are telling me that I have to pay into society and live a ceratin way - so the difference is that you won't leave people alone if they don't do what you expect of them.

 

 

 


Wow...all this from a post titled 'red light camera tickets'.  But just how free is anyone really?

 

Aren't we all bound by some form of rules (written or not) from birth onwards? ie: parents  determine what rules their child will follow in order to live as part of a functional family unit.  Then that extends further as part of being a larger society which has to work for the majority in order for it to be more equitable.  It may be unfair for the minority that may disagree with aim of the majority, but, until we get a better system, it provides a society's citizens with a well orderded and, relatively free, society.  Being part of a larger unit (whether family or country) is always going to be trade-off between absolute freedom and a collective responsibility. 

 

You're right that the majority of people don't begrudge paying their fair share of taxes to help provide services for everyone.  I just don't see how a free for all would be practical.  There has always been some form of taxes, it just wasn't formalised.  I believe in the past the ruling monarchs would send their 'henchman' around the country to demand payment to fund their latest wars, latest colonization project or to build the kings' newest castle.

 

One of the main things, IMO, most people object to is government waste which should always be called out. 

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets

@dabr  Yeah, red light cameras get me pretty upset. I agree there are rules everywhere, even from birth as you've said from our parents, but in each case we have the choice to follow the rules or not - if we don't have the choice it must be called for what it is: force. That's my point whether you believe the rules are right or wrong, we still have to see the truth for what it is, and that is that we don't have a choice whether to pay taxes because we are forced to.

 

I totally agree with your example of unformailized taxes from the kings henchmen, there are always people trying to tax othes, and this example of yours shows what taxes really are boiled down to their simplest form - the formal taxes we see today are just a prettier nicer version of the henchmen from your example, modern governments make laws and propaganda to hide the ugly truth of what taxes really are so that the paying of taxes becomes normailzed and more palatable and accepted.

 

The trade off of some or all of our individual freedoms as you've pointed out, is acceptable to you and many others, but that should not mean that others should be forced to accept it as well - that's all I'm saying, I don't shame you for your choice to accept taxes and so others should't try to force their opinion on me either. Being part of society or a larger unit as you say, should still be a matter of free choice instead of force, in my opinion.

 

I totally agree that government waste should be exposed and fixed too.

 

Freedom may not be practical and it may be a free for all as you say, but it's still the freedom to choose versus being forced, and some people rather have the unpractical and a free for all rather than being forced.

 

I totally understand how you and others don't think how not having taxes wouldn't be practical, I just don't agree and I think not having taxes especially income taxes could work out better than what we have now. Instead of a free for all, I just see a government that would be forced to be more effective and efficient because they couldn't just tax their way out of every problem/issue they face. The world could still be well ordered and free at the same time, and I don't believe that order and freedom have to sacrificed for each other, I don't think people have to be forced to be orderly - many people would simply choose to be orderly of their own free will and live amongst other who choose to be orderly too, without the need to force others to do the same.

 

How free is anyone really? That's up to us to decide how free we really want to be.

Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

Re: red light camera tickets


@villellamcmeans wrote:

@dabr  Yeah, red light cameras get me pretty upset. I agree there are rules everywhere, even from birth as you've said from our parents, but in each case we have the choice to follow the rules or not - if we don't have the choice it must be called for what it is: force. That's my point whether you believe the rules are right or wrong, we still have to see the truth for what it is, and that is that we don't have a choice whether to pay taxes because we are forced to.

 

I totally agree with your example of unformailized taxes from the kings henchmen, there are always people trying to tax othes, and this example of yours shows what taxes really are boiled down to their simplest form - the formal taxes we see today are just a prettier nicer version of the henchmen from your example, modern governments make laws and propaganda to hide the ugly truth of what taxes really are so that the paying of taxes becomes normailzed and more palatable and accepted.

 

The trade off of some or all of our individual freedoms as you've pointed out, is acceptable to you and many others, but that should not mean that others should be forced to accept it as well - that's all I'm saying, I don't shame you for your choice to accept taxes and so others should't try to force their opinion on me either. Being part of society or a larger unit as you say, should still be a matter of free choice instead of force, in my opinion.

 

I totally agree that government waste should be exposed and fixed too.

 

Freedom may not be practical and it may be a free for all as you say, but it's still the freedom to choose versus being forced, and some people rather have the unpractical and a free for all rather than being forced.

 

I totally understand how you and others don't think how not having taxes wouldn't be practical, I just don't agree and I think not having taxes especially income taxes could work out better than what we have now. Instead of a free for all, I just see a government that would be forced to be more effective and efficient because they couldn't just tax their way out of every problem/issue they face. The world could still be well ordered and free at the same time, and I don't believe that order and freedom have to sacrificed for each other, I don't think people have to be forced to be orderly - many people would simply choose to be orderly of their own free will and live amongst other who choose to be orderly too, without the need to force others to do the same.

 

How free is anyone really? That's up to us to decide how free we really want to be.


It looks like my response disappeared, so will try again.  I don't want to shame you or anyone else for having a different point of view.  You are perfectly entiltled to have your thoughts, just as others are entitled to disagree.  That's the beauty of freedom of speech (with some caveats, of course).  After all it's the free exchange of ideas and thougths (respectfully done) that may lead to improvements for better systems for society as a whole.

 

But I believe there never will be (practicality being one reason) complete freedom, no matter how much we may wish it.  Yes I'm mostly okay having a society that can benefit as many people as possible for the the loss of some freedoms.  Thats just my opinion, of course.

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

 @villellamcmeans 

First of all...it's not just me.

 

I completely object to your intentions of being a freeloader.

 

If not a freeloader then completely deluded as to how much a pure pay per use system would cost you. Or if things you need would even be available to you due to it not being profitable for those supplying them.

 

I'll go back to the health system. Is any given hospital busy the whole time they're open? No. But we all agree to pay for it to be open in that chance that we need it. Your magical system would mean that for you to need medical attention when you need it...everybody that works there would have to be called in, the lights turned on, the machines turned on, the heat turned on etc. That is utterly preposterous. Then how much do you suppose your pay as you go cost would be to do all that? Astronomical. You'd be busted all for a broken finger. Oh you don't have the cash to pay for it? Tough tooties. Get out. Or they would simply ask ahead of time before doing all that. So now you're dead because the broken finger got infected. Enjoy being dead. But hey! You weren't "forced" to pay a dime! You win. Oh wait. Jeez. Seriously?

 

The example of the American revolution. Sounds like you have a love-on for the states. Maybe you should move there. So how 'bout them taxes there? Oh look. They have taxes too. Sure they don't go to the crown but everybody has Uncle Sam staring them down if they don't pay their share. Like I said...when and if that revolution comes...line me up and shoot me. Oh well.

 

I've already covered that there are people that manage to live off the grid. It's a meagre existence if that's what you like. Have at it. So then others come and ask if they can join you. Do you just let 'em walk in? Do you not think that some of them won't do their fair share of the work? So they don't. What do you do? Just let them be free taking all of your resources for nothing? Not a chance! You WILL "force" them one way or the other to share. Then they're free to say yeah never mind I'm outta here. So you get a revolving line of people that come and go leaching off your utopian society until they can't. Why? Because your magical society "forces" compliance that's why. Think it through man.

 

I'm not scared of anything. I am of zero significance to this society we're sharing existence in. I have no actual power to "force" you to do anything. The vast majority of people that happen to go along with the society we've decided to keep going do however.

 

Again with the choosing to pay. We've already established that there WILL be people that will choose NOT to pay.

 

I agree with you that our current system where a group of elected members that have a majority effectively become a benevolent dictatorship. Do you vote? Have you voted to change any voting system? I do. I have. The majority don't agree with me. Oh well. Carry on.

 

I have already said that if a bunch leave and stop paying taxes then have at it. Don't care. See ya. For as long as you wish to continue to live in THIS society and use its benefits then you will need to pay your fair share. It simply can not function without everybody agreeing to pay their fair share. Do you want it to function? Or do you want it all to collapse into an anarchic, free for all, lawless, orderless, every person for themselves non-society?

 

Have that revolution. What you seem to be talking about is the theoretical utopia of a purely communistic society. Not the b@st@rdized ones that emerged. A truly communistic system.

 

Stratas are a microcosm of the larger society we live in. It's a community of people that agree with how to spend the money that everybody agrees to pay in to. If you don't agree to pay into it then you get removed. Not unlike property taxes either. It's nothing like a dictatorship. This will be how your magical society will deal with its freeloaders too. It's a pretty pure democratic system. Unlike our abused parliamentary system with the over-running of parties.

 

I'm saying that if you wish to live in this society then you need to pay your share of the upkeep. If not, you do have the freedom to leave.
Alternatively...if enough of you wish to change it all up then you can. Either by revolution or using the system as it is. Help yourself. Depending on what you wish to replace this society with maybe I would even join you. And pay my share. Because that's the right thing to do.

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

 @villellamcmeans 

I'll just quickly add seeing your other post...

METHODS of taxation are a whole. 'Nother. Topic.

I do not believe that a pay as you go system would work for a large society.

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets

@dabr  Of course, I didn't mean you when talked about shaming, I was talking about @z10user4  and others like that. We obviously don't agree, I don't have problem with that. On your point about free speach, I of course support it without the caveats, even @z10user4  can ridicule and say whatever he wants respecfully or not - I just don't agree with ridiculing/shaming to get a point across.

 

 

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets


@villellamcmeans wrote:

@dabr  Of course, I didn't mean you when talked about shaming, I was talking about @z10user4  and others like that. We obviously don't agree, I don't have problem with that. On your point about free speach, I of course support it without the caveats, even @z10user4  can ridicule and say whatever he wants respecfully or not - I just don't agree with ridiculing/shaming to get a point across.

 

 


 @villellamcmeans 

So...uh...your first post on this thread...you call the police pigs and everybody else sheep. That's respectful? That's not ridiculing? That's not shaming?

If you're gonna dish it, then you gotta be able to take it.

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@z10user4 wrote:

 @villellamcmeans 

First of all...it's not just me.

 

I completely object to your intentions of being a freeloader.

 

If not a freeloader then completely deluded as to how much a pure pay per use system would cost you. Or if things you need would even be available to you due to it not being profitable for those supplying them.

 

I'll go back to the health system. Is any given hospital busy the whole time they're open? No. But we all agree to pay for it to be open in that chance that we need it. Your magical system would mean that for you to need medical attention when you need it...everybody that works there would have to be called in, the lights turned on, the machines turned on, the heat turned on etc. That is utterly preposterous. Then how much do you suppose your pay as you go cost would be to do all that? Astronomical. You'd be busted all for a broken finger. Oh you don't have the cash to pay for it? Tough tooties. Get out. Or they would simply ask ahead of time before doing all that. So now you're dead because the broken finger got infected. Enjoy being dead. But hey! You weren't "forced" to pay a dime! You win. Oh wait. Jeez. Seriously?

 

The example of the American revolution. Sounds like you have a love-on for the states. Maybe you should move there. So how 'bout them taxes there? Oh look. They have taxes too. Sure they don't go to the crown but everybody has Uncle Sam staring them down if they don't pay their share. Like I said...when and if that revolution comes...line me up and shoot me. Oh well.

 

I've already covered that there are people that manage to live off the grid. It's a meagre existence if that's what you like. Have at it. So then others come and ask if they can join you. Do you just let 'em walk in? Do you not think that some of them won't do their fair share of the work? So they don't. What do you do? Just let them be free taking all of your resources for nothing? Not a chance! You WILL "force" them one way or the other to share. Then they're free to say yeah never mind I'm outta here. So you get a revolving line of people that come and go leaching off your utopian society until they can't. Why? Because your magical society "forces" compliance that's why. Think it through man.

 

I'm not scared of anything. I am of zero significance to this society we're sharing existence in. I have no actual power to "force" you to do anything. The vast majority of people that happen to go along with the society we've decided to keep going do however.

 

Again with the choosing to pay. We've already established that there WILL be people that will choose NOT to pay.

 

I agree with you that our current system where a group of elected members that have a majority effectively become a benevolent dictatorship. Do you vote? Have you voted to change any voting system? I do. I have. The majority don't agree with me. Oh well. Carry on.

 

I have already said that if a bunch leave and stop paying taxes then have at it. Don't care. See ya. For as long as you wish to continue to live in THIS society and use its benefits then you will need to pay your fair share. It simply can not function without everybody agreeing to pay their fair share. Do you want it to function? Or do you want it all to collapse into an anarchic, free for all, lawless, orderless, every person for themselves non-society?

 

Have that revolution. What you seem to be talking about is the theoretical utopia of a purely communistic society. Not the b@st@rdized ones that emerged. A truly communistic system.

 

Stratas are a microcosm of the larger society we live in. It's a community of people that agree with how to spend the money that everybody agrees to pay in to. If you don't agree to pay into it then you get removed. Not unlike property taxes either. It's nothing like a dictatorship. This will be how your magical society will deal with its freeloaders too. It's a pretty pure democratic system. Unlike our abused parliamentary system with the over-running of parties.

 

I'm saying that if you wish to live in this society then you need to pay your share of the upkeep. If not, you do have the freedom to leave.
Alternatively...if enough of you wish to change it all up then you can. Either by revolution or using the system as it is. Help yourself. Depending on what you wish to replace this society with maybe I would even join you. And pay my share. Because that's the right thing to do.


@z10user4  Do I vote? Yeah, I do.

 

How am I a freeloader? I already said pay per use.

 

I'm deluded? I already gave you examples of how health care works better privatized with private insurance, in fact private industry does better than government in every case worldwide, that's why there are private hospitals in existence - they make money and survive on their own without free taxpayer dollars.

 

I have no idea what things would cost? I do know, that's why I support private industry paying for it and not my tax dollars? You on the other hand don't know what it costs and that's why you're happy with our tax dollars paying for it.

 

I'd be broke and dead because of a broken finger? You're the one deluded, I already told you that private insurance that I could chose or chose not to buy would pay for my medical cost as pay per use.

 

Love on for the states? Settle down, I do love the ideals that the american revolution was fought for inculding the ideals that formed the bill of rights and constitution and is the originator of all the rights and freedoms we all including you enjoy today, so if you can't see that you owe all your rights and freedoms to the american freedom fighters of the american revolution - keep being ignorant.

 

Taxes in the states? Exactly. You've just pointed out how an ideal and free society like the america during the time of the revoultion can become the worst place to live in now - it's because of people like you that america has sunk to the facist tax hell it is now, because people like you are happy to blindly pay their taxes and not hold the government accountable for being ineffective and inefficient. In fact, american citizens kept voting in the pigs that first introduced taxes to america, so like you they choose to allow themsleves to keep having their taxes increased.

 

Line you up and shoot you? You're the only one that keeps mentioning the use of force, I only said to leave people alone, but you keep trying to equate letting people choose to them shooting you.

 

It's not just you? I agree, most are just as ignorant as you as to the true value and worth of freedom.

 

We establish there will be people who choose not to pay, what we don't agree on is that you want to force them to pay somehow through jail or seizing their money etc, or by shaming and ridiculing them just like what you're doing to me. If you were really ok with me and others opinion about not paying taxes, you could point out that you'll keep paying whether we pay or not - end of discussion.

 

How would we handle others joining us? The same way any other person does, people of similar ideals naturally gravitate to each other and those that araen't similar will graviate away - unless people like you force otherwise.

 

I would replace the system we have now firstly by replacing the income generated by income taxes with something else, then slowly replace the income generated by things like red light cameras and photo radar with other things too - and at the same time reduce government waste by cutting down on budgets which would in turn reduce the need for taxes such as income tax and photo radar etc. Until there is change, I won't change my opinion until change occurs and if it is then proven not to work - only then would I consider changing my opinion on total freedom being the best public policy.

 

 

Deputy Mayor / Adjoint au Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

would replace the system we have now firstly by replacing the income generated by income taxes with something else, then slowly replace the income generated by things like red light cameras and photo radar with other things too - and at the same time reduce government waste by cutting down on budgets which would in turn reduce the need for taxes such as income tax and photo radar etc. Until there is change, I won't change my opinion until change occurs and if it is then proven not to work - only then would I consider changing my opinion on total freedom being the best public policy.

 

@villellamcmeans   So to me that's interesting that you speak about 'replacing income taxes etc' with something else...what exactly would that something else be, and what if in your 'new system' others object to the new form of something else?  Just curious what this 'something else' is?

 
 
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Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

 @villellamcmeans 

You can't be saying pay per use on one hand and then talk about insurance on the other. Insurance is very similar to paying taxes. If you don't pay the premiums then you have no coverage. Dead again. Or at least broke. It would be my opinion and perception that far more civilized countries have public health care. But I don't have stats.

 

Oh so you're in the private health care delivery business? Do tell. Seriously curious.

 

Rights and freedoms...for slave owners. Uh huh.

 

I say the shoot me in response to your revolution thought.

 

I am not ok with you not paying your fair share.

 

Those people of similar ideals then have kids. The kids don't subscribe to your utopia and rebel as kids do and just take what they can get for nothing. They're getting a nice free ride. Why would they gravitate away? What do you do?

 

Now talking about taxation methods I don't pretend to have all the answers. Just like all my writings all this time. I do often wonder about consumption taxes though. No one likes income tax. But it's what we have.