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Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

 @villellamcmeans 

"forcing people to donate" ?? It's not donating. It's putting in your share of the overall costs of upkeep.
Of course nobody *wants* to pay, but it's just what you do in a society of a group of people.
Only paying for things when it affects you is beyond selfish and also not thinking it through.

 

So you hurt yourself. Are you going to haul yourself off to a hospital and pay your at-that-moment usage-fee for EVERYTHING. The mere existance of it? And where? It would make economic sense to put it closest to the most people. I guess those living in rural areas can die for lack of a close by hospital. The doctors? Every kind of specialist doctor there is? That gets expensive fast. The nurses? The equipment? Does every hospital then need to have every possible piece of equipment just in case you happen to haul yourself there and you need a particular item to save you?

 

Pay per use: so tolls for a stretch of road. Which road? How far is a toll worth? Who owns the road? Different tolls for different volume of use? Tolls for sidewalks? Tolls for parks?

Before income taxes, it was all for yourself. Do or die. Survival of the fittest. FAR fewer services that were for the common good that you could even hope to pay a toll for. You might manage to sustain a small group of people in a small geographic area. Then you're back to rules and structure and "force". Or just get kicked out of that group. Then you die because you have no support structure. Is that force? You die if you don't agree to some rules and share of the costs of them?

 

I'll continue to disagree to the similarity between choosing to tip someone for a service rendered (which I really dislike doing by the way...just pay the worker a living wage to begin with) and sharing in the overall costs of all of the infrastructure and services available to those that choose to pay in.

 

There are people that manage to "live off the grid" inside of this capitalist society. Might be a family or extended family or a small group of people. Do you really think they don't have shared costs or shared work for whatever is being produced to live off of?

 

I'll admit to having a look into that sovereign citizen thing. I couldn't get past the higher power god thing. I wouldn't be able to stand before the power that is oppressing me and profess that a higher power god thing says I can be this way.

 

So I agree with the majority to play along and pay my share and enjoy the fruits of what a large group of people can do together as a society. I may not agree with the choices that the elected managers of that society make in regards to spending money on such and such that does not benefit me directly. But then nor does the person across this vast geographic space under their management agree to spend money on things that might benefit me and not them. But we do. Because it helps all of us be better, live better, live longer, be healthier, not have potholes, keep the buses running etc. All for the common good.

 

Heck...think of your pay per use, as you need it expenditures as your taxes. What a concept. Someone should invent a society that works that way. Oh wait.

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@z10user4 wrote:

 @villellamcmeans 

"forcing people to donate" ?? It's not donating. It's putting in your share of the overall costs of upkeep.
Of course nobody *wants* to pay, but it's just what you do in a society of a group of people.
Only paying for things when it affects you is beyond selfish and also not thinking it through.

 

So you hurt yourself. Are you going to haul yourself off to a hospital and pay your at-that-moment usage-fee for EVERYTHING. The mere existance of it? And where? It would make economic sense to put it closest to the most people. I guess those living in rural areas can die for lack of a close by hospital. The doctors? Every kind of specialist doctor there is? That gets expensive fast. The nurses? The equipment? Does every hospital then need to have every possible piece of equipment just in case you happen to haul yourself there and you need a particular item to save you?

 

Pay per use: so tolls for a stretch of road. Which road? How far is a toll worth? Who owns the road? Different tolls for different volume of use? Tolls for sidewalks? Tolls for parks?

Before income taxes, it was all for yourself. Do or die. Survival of the fittest. FAR fewer services that were for the common good that you could even hope to pay a toll for. You might manage to sustain a small group of people in a small geographic area. Then you're back to rules and structure and "force". Or just get kicked out of that group. Then you die because you have no support structure. Is that force? You die if you don't agree to some rules and share of the costs of them?

 

I'll continue to disagree to the similarity between choosing to tip someone for a service rendered (which I really dislike doing by the way...just pay the worker a living wage to begin with) and sharing in the overall costs of all of the infrastructure and services available to those that choose to pay in.

 

There are people that manage to "live off the grid" inside of this capitalist society. Might be a family or extended family or a small group of people. Do you really think they don't have shared costs or shared work for whatever is being produced to live off of?

 

I'll admit to having a look into that sovereign citizen thing. I couldn't get past the higher power god thing. I wouldn't be able to stand before the power that is oppressing me and profess that a higher power god thing says I can be this way.

 

So I agree with the majority to play along and pay my share and enjoy the fruits of what a large group of people can do together as a society. I may not agree with the choices that the elected managers of that society make in regards to spending money on such and such that does not benefit me directly. But then nor does the person across this vast geographic space under their management agree to spend money on things that might benefit me and not them. But we do. Because it helps all of us be better, live better, live longer, be healthier, not have potholes, keep the buses running etc. All for the common good.

 

Heck...think of your pay per use, as you need it expenditures as your taxes. What a concept. Someone should invent a society that works that way. Oh wait.


Well, after everything you've said, it's still taking by force - there's no choice to opt out of taxes is there? You can justify it all you want by saying how eveyone benefits, and maybe everyone does benefit, but still there is no choice - and that's what I have a problem with. For a society to be truely free, people have to be free to choose what they pay for, anything else is simply taking by force.

 

The way you've explained it about telling everyine to put in their "share" and make it easier to swallow by the common good rhetoric, is the same thing churches and other greater good group get others to donate too - and I have nothing against donating, except when it's mandatory like it is with taxes.

 

So, maybe it upsets you that you'll happily pay taxes while others don't want to be forced to, consider why you are upset - you want others to do what you happily do, but you don't consider letting people have their own free choice on the matter?

 

Sure we have nice roads and hospitals etc all paid for by taxpayers, but it's just like the pyramids and the great wall and the slaves who built it - somebody decides that taxes or labour will be taken by force for some greater purpose.

 

No matter what the greater benefit is or excuse is, bottom line is that no one can choose not to contribute - that's where the wrong is.

Re: red light camera tickets

I haven't read this entire thread, but if I remember correctly, these cameras and photos take a couple of pictuers.

 

One is the driver of the vehicle, and there is one of the licence plate, and I'm sure the red light is also pictured.

 

You can't be assured you're the one being ticketed, as the licence plate identifies the registered owner of the car/leaser of the vehicle.  The driver could be someone else.

 

Unless the owner (or a driver of the company that owns the vehicle), you can battle the charge.

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets


@villellamcmeans wrote:

Well, after everything you've said, it's still taking by force - there's no choice to opt out of taxes is there? You can justify it all you want by saying how eveyone benefits, and maybe everyone does benefit, but still there is no choice - and that's what I have a problem with. For a society to be truely free, people have to be free to choose what they pay for, anything else is simply taking by force.

 

The way you've explained it about telling everyine to put in their "share" and make it easier to swallow by the common good rhetoric, is the same thing churches and other greater good group get others to donate too - and I have nothing against donating, except when it's mandatory like it is with taxes.

 

So, maybe it upsets you that you'll happily pay taxes while others don't want to be forced to, consider why you are upset - you want others to do what you happily do, but you don't consider letting people have their own free choice on the matter?

 

Sure we have nice roads and hospitals etc all paid for by taxpayers, but it's just like the pyramids and the great wall and the slaves who built it - somebody decides that taxes or labour will be taken by force for some greater purpose.

 

No matter what the greater benefit is or excuse is, bottom line is that no one can choose not to contribute - that's where the wrong is.


 @villellamcmeans 

But we've agreed that people won't likely voluntarily pay into the system to pay for the benefits they enjoy. How do you propose that you're going to pay for those nice roads and hospitals? Maybe if you died of a simple infection then you can die proudly proclaiming that yeah well I didn't pay a dang thing so here I am dead so take that you dirty tax collectors I'm dead hahahah. Or I guess you just walk around in undeveloped woods.

 

My problem with those that don't want to pay into the system is that then they can't possibly go about enjoying the benefits of it. That would be taking without paying. Society costs money.

 

I think you need to go and find some deserted island and live alone. Then no one can force you to do anything. This is civilized society. We trade some freedoms for the benefits that a society brings. If you wish to live amongst us then you just have to be willing to trade the same.

I have often quipped when saying something about being free to do something that we're "mostly" free. No one in a civilized society is completely free.

 

I agree that we're not truly free. We can't do alot of things that maybe we'd like to do. I have a problem with hate speech laws. But we have them. I'm not going to go out marching to overthrow it. It's not worth it. If someone of some other society wants to hate all over me then I just ignore it. All the way up until they go about physically harming me. Then I'll do what I can to stop them.

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@z10user4 wrote:

@villellamcmeans wrote:

Well, after everything you've said, it's still taking by force - there's no choice to opt out of taxes is there? You can justify it all you want by saying how eveyone benefits, and maybe everyone does benefit, but still there is no choice - and that's what I have a problem with. For a society to be truely free, people have to be free to choose what they pay for, anything else is simply taking by force.

 

The way you've explained it about telling everyine to put in their "share" and make it easier to swallow by the common good rhetoric, is the same thing churches and other greater good group get others to donate too - and I have nothing against donating, except when it's mandatory like it is with taxes.

 

So, maybe it upsets you that you'll happily pay taxes while others don't want to be forced to, consider why you are upset - you want others to do what you happily do, but you don't consider letting people have their own free choice on the matter?

 

Sure we have nice roads and hospitals etc all paid for by taxpayers, but it's just like the pyramids and the great wall and the slaves who built it - somebody decides that taxes or labour will be taken by force for some greater purpose.

 

No matter what the greater benefit is or excuse is, bottom line is that no one can choose not to contribute - that's where the wrong is.


 @villellamcmeans 

But we've agreed that people won't likely voluntarily pay into the system to pay for the benefits they enjoy. How do you propose that you're going to pay for those nice roads and hospitals? Maybe if you died of a simple infection then you can die proudly proclaiming that yeah well I didn't pay a dang thing so here I am dead so take that you dirty tax collectors I'm dead hahahah. Or I guess you just walk around in undeveloped woods.

 

My problem with those that don't want to pay into the system is that then they can't possibly go about enjoying the benefits of it. That would be taking without paying. Society costs money.

 

I think you need to go and find some deserted island and live alone. Then no one can force you to do anything. This is civilized society. We trade some freedoms for the benefits that a society brings. If you wish to live amongst us then you just have to be willing to trade the same.

I have often quipped when saying something about being free to do something that we're "mostly" free. No one in a civilized society is completely free.

 

I agree that we're not truly free. We can't do alot of things that maybe we'd like to do. I have a problem with hate speech laws. But we have them. I'm not going to go out marching to overthrow it. It's not worth it. If someone of some other society wants to hate all over me then I just ignore it. All the way up until they go about physically harming me. Then I'll do what I can to stop them.


@z10user4  You say no one in a civilized society is completely free, and I agree - and I point out that this is the whole problem to begin with, because we should be exploring ways to be truly free and remain in a civilized society. The time before income taxes were introduced was only 100 years ago before world war 1, the united states didn't have income taxes then and was still a civilized society, and other times in history were income taxes didn't exist yet were also civilized, so it's possible if we try - so why not expirment with a no tax society using trial and error until it works, instead of settling for a society were no one is completely free?

 

One example we can probably all relate to is to think of it like someone travelling to a foreign country, the traveller pays no taxes so has to buy insurance to be covered for hospitals etc - so we know that health plans can be pay for by choice not by force, everything else can be paid by choice too instead of by force. The idea of forcing people to pay for the benefits of society just isn't rational, because we have private insurance companies for health/auto/etc and if that can be done without forcing taxes upon everyone - then anything can be done without forcing taxes on everyone too.

 

I don't think anyone has to go live on a deserted island to be free, we just have to change the culture of thinking taxes are unavoidable - because that's just not true, taxes did not always exist, governments created them and they keep growing because everyone allows them to keep growing. Less taxes would mean less spent on infrastructure, but why not spend less? Instead of rasing taxes and finding ways to forcifully take more money from citizens through taxes and red light cameras etc - why not find ways to reduce taxes each year, at least little by little by cutting spending.

 

I agree with you that those that don't pay should not enjoy the benefits paid by others, but the society your taxes currently pay into now it exactly that - doesn't your taxes pay for all sorts of social welfare for those not paying taxes? Like all the people on welfare are being supported by your taxes, if there were no taxes then those who wanted to pay for the poor could do so by free choice instead of being forced to like how it is now. So if you don't want to be paying for others that don't pay taxes like you, you should stop supporting this system of taxation and instead support a system that only allows those who pay to receive what they pay for - just like private home/auto/health/etc insurance is done.

 

It wouldn't be hard to change the system, it's not hard to operate private home/auto/health/etc insurance coverage, so it wouldn't be hard to change everything to operate the same way - then people could have the choice to pay in or opt out. The gang mentality of forcing everyone to do the same as society expects of them is not reasonble, it's more reasonable to allow people to choose what they want to pay for instead of forcing them. Some people don't want the nicest roads and nicest hospitals, you can't blame them for not helping pay for the nicest things others want, even if they don't live on an island or in the forest - people just want to be able to choose for themselves instead of being told want they have to do and being told what's best for them.

Great Citizen / Super Citoyen

Re: red light camera tickets

that's not true...they treat this like a parking ticket and it's actually the car and its owner that are charged. 

 

The picture shows the car crossing into the intersection (license plate clearly visible) and the color of the light when it is so it's pretty hard to say the car was not running the red light.

 

All tickets got redcuded to $240 from $360 by pleading guilty and proceeding to trial.

 

A friend of mine went to trial and they could not find the photos and it was dismissed, so I guess it's worth a try if you have the time.

Highlighted
Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

 @villellamcmeans 

Don't care about the US. We're in Canada. Besides, that "civilized" society had a whole freaking war over keeping other people enslaved. Yeah. Civilized.

 

I don't settle. I'm fine to pay in to a system that provides benefits like nice roads and hospitals (as our two shining examples continue). I think it's reasonable to "force" everybody else to pay their fair share too if I'm having to pay.

 

Those insurance providers likely don't pay for the whole hospital and staff and nurses and doctors and equipment etc. The states is its own special case because they're a capitalist/corporatist backwater. But much of other civilized countries have publically paid health systems. That visitor might pay some fees and expenses as decided by the facility but the visitor doesn't pay for everything that exists having to do with that facility. Land, utilities, construction, maintenance, wages etc.

 

You do know that insurance is shared cost right? Oh look...the same as publicly provided services. And with a public system, the "rates" are much lower because the costs are spread out over more people.

 

You keep mentioning taxes didn't always exist. Once people starting banding together into larger groups, things had to be paid for that they couldn't otherwise do for themselves. Taxes. Be they rents, tolls, charges, fees, tithes etc. If you wished to be a part of that larger grouping of people then you had to ("forced to") pay into the pot. Otherwise...get lost. Go live on an island for all we care. So some did. Then others joined them. Then they had to be organized about how to pay for it all. Oh look. Taxes. Again.

 

I like having systems and services available to me when needed. My own disaster could happen at any time. Otherwise I'm dead. Yeah I'll pay for the upkeep of that system and service. Even though I may never use it. That really is the same as insurance...just cheaper.

 

As for welfare recipients...I think with all the wealth concentrated in so few hands that a good chunk of that wealth should be extracted so that all of the not so wealthy, vast majority of the rest of us could live with some dignity by having a basic income. Welfare is beneath dignified. But it's what we currently have available for the not so fortunate. Have you no compassion for your fellow humans? Or are you really only just out for #1?

 

Nobody expects the nicest roads and nicest hospitals. We would all want them to not destroy our cars and to be run efficiently with the dollars they get. I like knowing that I can just walk into a hospital with whatever ails me and get medical attention without going broke and selling my assets or worse being turned away because I have nothing to pay for it. No thanks.

 

It's not force. It's voluntarily agreeing to pay into the pot for systems and services that I can use or that my fellow humans need. You're always "free" to leave and go start your own system elsewhere. You can kill off or banish those that become freeloaders all you want. But wait...your magical society still needs to pay for stuff and who's payin' and how? All of you - by some form of taxation - by "force".

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@z10user4 wrote:

 @villellamcmeans 

Don't care about the US. We're in Canada. Besides, that "civilized" society had a whole freaking war over keeping other people enslaved. Yeah. Civilized.

 

I don't settle. I'm fine to pay in to a system that provides benefits like nice roads and hospitals (as our two shining examples continue). I think it's reasonable to "force" everybody else to pay their fair share too if I'm having to pay.

 

Those insurance providers likely don't pay for the whole hospital and staff and nurses and doctors and equipment etc. The states is its own special case because they're a capitalist/corporatist backwater. But much of other civilized countries have publically paid health systems. That visitor might pay some fees and expenses as decided by the facility but the visitor doesn't pay for everything that exists having to do with that facility. Land, utilities, construction, maintenance, wages etc.

 

You do know that insurance is shared cost right? Oh look...the same as publicly provided services. And with a public system, the "rates" are much lower because the costs are spread out over more people.

 

You keep mentioning taxes didn't always exist. Once people starting banding together into larger groups, things had to be paid for that they couldn't otherwise do for themselves. Taxes. Be they rents, tolls, charges, fees, tithes etc. If you wished to be a part of that larger grouping of people then you had to ("forced to") pay into the pot. Otherwise...get lost. Go live on an island for all we care. So some did. Then others joined them. Then they had to be organized about how to pay for it all. Oh look. Taxes. Again.

 

I like having systems and services available to me when needed. My own disaster could happen at any time. Otherwise I'm dead. Yeah I'll pay for the upkeep of that system and service. Even though I may never use it. That really is the same as insurance...just cheaper.

 

As for welfare recipients...I think with all the wealth concentrated in so few hands that a good chunk of that wealth should be extracted so that all of the not so wealthy, vast majority of the rest of us could live with some dignity by having a basic income. Welfare is beneath dignified. But it's what we currently have available for the not so fortunate. Have you no compassion for your fellow humans? Or are you really only just out for #1?

 

Nobody expects the nicest roads and nicest hospitals. We would all want them to not destroy our cars and to be run efficiently with the dollars they get. I like knowing that I can just walk into a hospital with whatever ails me and get medical attention without going broke and selling my assets or worse being turned away because I have nothing to pay for it. No thanks.

 

It's not force. It's voluntarily agreeing to pay into the pot for systems and services that I can use or that my fellow humans need. You're always "free" to leave and go start your own system elsewhere. You can kill off or banish those that become freeloaders all you want. But wait...your magical society still needs to pay for stuff and who's payin' and how? All of you - by some form of taxation - by "force".


 

@z10user4  You say it's not force, then you say it's reasonable to force people to pay for what you want, that's not reasonable at all - the fact that you tell people to get lost if they don't agree with you is already not reasonable.

 

You enjoy this society that forces people to pay, fine - but that doesn't make others that don't enjoy being forced to pay or get lost wrong either. Your get lost attitude can be used both ways too, why don't all you people that like to force and impose there way on others get lost instead of colonizing the world? We both know the answer why you won't - you need others to pay or you 's won't have enough money to pay for all the things you want, that why you force people instead of leaving them alone, because if you let people choose you'll end up with less money to pay for your society that doesn't let people opt out. The taxes racket is big business, that's why wars are fought for who gets to govern, that's why elections are big business and high stakes - they all want to be the one forcing everyone else to pay for the things they want.

 

My magical society doesn't need to pay for anything, it's you that wants and expects things paid for by force, my way is to let people pay for or not pay for whatever they want - maybe that's too simple for you.

Mayor / Maire

Re: red light camera tickets

 @villellamcmeans 

Well...have your revolution and line me up and shoot me and dump me in the ocean. Oh but wait. You gotta pay for all those guns and ammo. How is your merry band of non-taxpayers gonna pay for that? Just each yourself "choosing" to buy what you need or you all as a group being then able to pool your money together. But then wait again...who decides what to get and how much each person should pay. Oh but you say each person can choose to pay what they wish. So the guy that "chooses" not to pay anything will be allowed to have and use the things he needs? Or he is welcome to use his home-made sling-shot and have at it. Not bl@@dy likely.

Anyway...not gonna happen so I'm not worried.

 

I put the word - force - into quotes to use your terminology. It's not my terminology.

 

Again...there are lots of things that the government pays for that I have no need for. Then there are fellow citizens on the other side of this governed mass that derive no benefit from things that I do get benefit from. The idea is that it all balances out.

 

I agree with you about colonizing. Although that's old news now. Now it's more about needing resources of whatever nature. ie. oil, water, timber, minerals. Y'know...that stuff to make stuff with.

 

So your magical society will be world-wide? ALL of the people will play along in your magical society? I think the "too simple" is the other way around. I don't think you're thinking it through.

 

Unless you just want to return to the caves and maybe live to 40 and hunt with home-made weapons and cook over an open fire...stuff needs to be paid for. People need to decide who will be the decision makers and how much to pay in the kitty to pay for all the things that are needed in ANY society.

 

I'll bring it back again...it's a whole lot like living in a modern shared-living community. What is called strata in BC. It can be a house on a lot, part of a house or an apartment in a building. The shared things need to be paid for. You are "forced" to pay into that kitty or you get kicked out. It's really the same concept. Things. Need. To be. Paid. For.

Model Citizen / Citoyen Modèle

Re: red light camera tickets


@z10user4 wrote:

 @villellamcmeans 

Well...have your revolution and line me up and shoot me and dump me in the ocean. Oh but wait. You gotta pay for all those guns and ammo. How is your merry band of non-taxpayers gonna pay for that? Just each yourself "choosing" to buy what you need or you all as a group being then able to pool your money together. But then wait again...who decides what to get and how much each person should pay. Oh but you say each person can choose to pay what they wish. So the guy that "chooses" not to pay anything will be allowed to have and use the things he needs? Or he is welcome to use his home-made sling-shot and have at it. Not bl@@dy likely.

Anyway...not gonna happen so I'm not worried.

 

I put the word - force - into quotes to use your terminology. It's not my terminology.

 

Again...there are lots of things that the government pays for that I have no need for. Then there are fellow citizens on the other side of this governed mass that derive no benefit from things that I do get benefit from. The idea is that it all balances out.

 

I agree with you about colonizing. Although that's old news now. Now it's more about needing resources of whatever nature. ie. oil, water, timber, minerals. Y'know...that stuff to make stuff with.

 

So your magical society will be world-wide? ALL of the people will play along in your magical society? I think the "too simple" is the other way around. I don't think you're thinking it through.

 

Unless you just want to return to the caves and maybe live to 40 and hunt with home-made weapons and cook over an open fire...stuff needs to be paid for. People need to decide who will be the decision makers and how much to pay in the kitty to pay for all the things that are needed in ANY society.

 

I'll bring it back again...it's a whole lot like living in a modern shared-living community. What is called strata in BC. It can be a house on a lot, part of a house or an apartment in a building. The shared things need to be paid for. You are "forced" to pay into that kitty or you get kicked out. It's really the same concept. Things. Need. To be. Paid. For.


@z10user4  Call it what you want, make all the excuses and reasons you want, be as sarcastic as you want - all you're doing is shaming and bullying others into doing what you want because you want things paid for by forcing others to pitch in.

 

Look at any revolution in history and you can quickly separate those that bully and shame others into falling in line, and those that allow others to choose whether to join or not - nazi germany and communist china are examples of not telling people to either do what they tell you or get kicked out as you call it.

 

An example of a free revolution is the american revolution where people could choose to help revolt agaist taxes or not, who paid for that revolution? It was paid for by the people who participated, the ones that revolted paid for their war themselves and won - read some history and you'll see that america was created by a merry band of non-taxpayers who paid for guns/ammo/etc all by themselves of their own free choosing. All your sarcasm is similar to all those who didn't believe in the american revolution and didn't think a merry band of freedom fighters stood a chance agaist the british empire - the british didn't think it was bloody likely either that anyone would dare not pay their forced taxes and not dare to be kicked out of the british empire. The british didn't think the american revolution was gonna happen either and they were not worried either like you.

 

Was the american revolution a magical society? It was indeed magical because most of the world thought like you and couldn't imagine a world without being forced to pay taxes - they couldn't imagine free people could allow free choice on who pays for what services such as all the resources you listed(wood, water, oil, minerals, etc), but it sure worked out for american since they won the revolutionary war and for a time were a magical society where people could not pay taxes and choose for themsleves what to pay for and what not to pay for.

 

The too simple is for those like you who don't know how to think outside of what the government and society groomed you to think, that chaos will reign if we don't have people like you around to bully and shame us into obedience. British society laughed at the americans just like you laugh thinking nobody can survive without rulers telling us what to do and how to live and that without rulers we'd all be cavemen living in the woods around campfires as you say - but look at how america showed their rulers how free cavemen can live and fight.

 

You keep saying society this and society that, fine if you choose to live that way, but when you force/shame/bully others into doing the same, that's when you start to go down the same path as all those facists regimes in human history. You're scared people will stop helping you pay for all the nice things you like in society, you're scared that if you let people choose they won't remain in your sociey - well your society isn't so nice when you know people won't stay or pay when you let them choose for themselves, if your society was so great you could let people choose and they'd choose to pay and stay of their own free will.

 

How's this for a simple concept? You need things to be paid for so you'll resort to force to get what you want, doesn't sound any different than what thieves and bandits say.

 

Things. Need To. Be. Paid. For. But. Through. Forcing. Others.

 

You are probably in the majority that agree with forcing others, but a majority dictating to the minority is still a dictatorship, so why don't you stop bullying others to think like you and just be happy with all the others that do think like you - why can't you leave others to their own free thought? I'm not telling others they have to do or think like me or be kicked out of society or be ridiculed, why is it so important for you to do so? If a bunch leave and stop paying taxes and don't use anything in your society, so what?  You already said you don't care, so if you don't care then you should stop trying to shame and bully others about it.

 

Your comment about strata in bc is interesting, since many consider the strata community a dictatirship anyways - all strata condo will look similar, no hanging christmas wreaths on the doors or any other religious symbols or the strata board will go after you etc.  If you like strata communities then I can see why you don't like anyone to not fall in line with what you want. But I'm not trying to tell you that you have you live in a strata or pay into any society, you on the other hand are telling me that I have to pay into society and live a ceratin way - so the difference is that you won't leave people alone if they don't do what you expect of them.