A thread about unions in todays world

[Anonymous]

@kav2001c- suggested starting a thread.

Here it is.

I have every patience for whatever unions are calling for even if I'm being impacted.

I liken it to Remembrance Day. If it wasn't for the men and women of the wars doing what they did then we may very well not have the freedoms and democratic principles that we now have. Never forget.

So too with unions. I say they're even more relevant today than they were. Precarious jobs. "Gig" economy. Globalization. Bring on the unions. They fight with their numbers so that the rest of us that are unprotected by unions will get a trickle down of the benefits that they fought for.

Do you really think any dang employer wants to pay benefits? No! Do you really think any dang employer wants to pay their employees for nothing (stats)? No! That's what unions do for the rest of us.

There that's a start.

[lemew07]

I am guessing you would be willing to give back your 40 hour work week your overtime your benefits paid vacation  and sick benefits. Why people are so quick to slam unions. It must be a I dont have it so they should not have it mentality. Just my 2 cent worth in MHO we are so much better of with unions than we would be without them. Have a Great Day Solidarity forever lol could not help my self. Cheers Lemew

[Anonymous]

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@kav2001c wrote:

@Anonymous

Oh come on now

Look at the most public union strike (Canada Post) and the Oshawa GM plant (who will raise hell)

Both groups are insanely overpaid / underworked

The "evil corporate greed and exploitation" is too much

Or look at the last election when Ontario teachers unions got their panties twisted over what were (imo) very reasonable demands

EG - teachers want the ability to bank sick days they do not use over the year (many of them amassing months of paid "vacation" when they are not really sick). When government refused many of them said they would skip work falsely claiming illness instead.

That is what my point is; many of these union solidarity things could have good intentions behind them but BLINDLY following the status quo is silly

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It's the corporations that want to keep the status quo by denying their working people a living wage.

"insanely overpaid": So the banks can make *billions* in PROFIT, not revenue,  profit and outsource employees to third world countries or worse, abuse temporary foreign workers and not hire Canadians and that's presumably all fine by you. But provide the working people, that are the ones actually doing the work that the corporation needs done in order to exist, a living wage is too much for you. I see.

The question that I've asked in other circles is...how much is enough? Do the ridiculously obscene, excessively, unnecessarily, undeservedly rich really need wharehouses full of cars, mansions on every continent, jets nearby at each mansion etc? No.

The "evil corporate greed and exploitation" has been going on since time immemorial. It's a sickness in the human nature to feel the compulsion to have it over the next guy. That you just can't possibly have enough to enjoy life but not be wondering what the heck to do with all this freakin' money. It has to be ALL of it or what's the point in existing, it seems.

Just sick.

[kav2001c]

@stonechucker

Now now got to keep it civil or this thread will derail

Wynne was an abomination but if it makes you feel better I will never cast a vote for Doug Ford (I can not fathom what they were thinking in that insanity; we could start an entirely new thread about what he has done so far)

The "extreme right" is kinda funny tho

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@stonechucker wrote:

Glad to see my rant pulled to pieces by the extreme right here in the lounge.  Pulling segments out of my post to make it seem like there were no wins.

[kav2001c]

@Anonymous

Oh come on now

Look at the most public union strike (Canada Post) and the Oshawa GM plant (who will raise hell)

Both groups are insanely overpaid / underworked

The "evil corporate greed and exploitation" is too much

Or look at the last election when Ontario teachers unions got their panties twisted over what were (imo) very reasonable demands

EG - teachers want the ability to bank sick days they do not use over the year (many of them amassing months of paid "vacation" when they are not really sick). When government refused many of them said they would skip work falsely claiming illness instead.

That is what my point is; many of these union solidarity things could have good intentions behind them but BLINDLY following the status quo is silly

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@kav2001c wrote:

@@stonechucker

The part of standing together is one of the things I find most disturbing about pro union mentality

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Wow. Working people united as a front against corporate greed and exploitation and you find that disturbing.

Yikes.

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[stonechucker]

Glad to see my rant pulled to pieces by the extreme right here in the lounge.  Pulling segments out of my post to make it seem like there were no wins.

Social programs in Europe are so much further ahead than they are here, because they've been paying higher taxes previously over the years, and taking those tax dollars, and funding programs to help people.

In Hamilton, ON, 'Steeltown', Stelco and Dofasco were two big steel plants, where one plant was unionized, and the other plant wasn't.  I'm not sure which was which, but when the union got their collective bargaining agreement settled, the other plan took it and put it in place immediately.  Unions, fighting for others!

Evolved European countries actually give 5-6 paid vacation as the family is the core of everything.  Here in the West, workers are lucky to start with 3 weeks.  In Ontario, this was recently legislated under the Wynne led Liberal Government, and now Doug Ford and his (non-)Progressive Conservative Party are stripping away by cutting the planned minimum wage increase, striking worker-friendly language from the Ontario labour laws, and making cuts to Health and Welfare projects meant to help those who don't even make a living wage, let alone the lower minimum wage.

Tax cuts for business do not trickle down to the consumer or taxpayer.  Tax cuts line the pockets of greedy, wealth hoarding masters, who still live in the age of slavery.

[wetcoaster]

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@kav2001c wrote:

@Anonymous

I would argue most of our holidays are very obviously based on RELIGIOUS groups not any sort of union influence (which actually should also be a bone to pick for most people)

Good Friday, Christmas, Easter Monday

Others are more government oriented such as Canada Day, Victoria Day

Really Labour Day would be only national holiday that could be traced back to Union organizers

@stonechucker

The part of standing together is one of the things I find most disturbing about pro union mentality

Also interesting argument about "requiring" unions

Notice Euro countires such as France are basically union-free? And yet they have better social services and more holidays and rights than we do? Hmm....

Actually Canada is very highly unionized (too highly; percentage of our workforce who are unionized is more than DOUBLE the USA, notice how much more we pay for literally everything? Higher minimum wage does not even come close to closing that disparity)

@stonechucker wrote:

As a union member, 20+ years, and a very proud union member at that, I stand with my sisters and brothers across the labour force, union and unionized.

If it were not for unions, we wouldn’t have labour laws, holidays, paid vacations.

unions protect the public from the greed of the rich.  We stand up for all of us, and all of you.

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Have to disagree, France is definitely anything BUT "union free". And union organized strikes are quite frequent there.

Public servants, postal workers, factory employees, railway workers, teachers, airline personal... You name the profession and they have walked off the job at least once in the past 2 decades 

Even in countries like Switzerland, where the last major walk-outs happened a 100 years ago, the workforce in every profession has its own union that does the big picture bargaining with the employer organisations re minimum wage for the profession, benefits etc. From a distance, you just hear less about those unions because they usually don't  call for the most drastic measures.

[ShawnC13]

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@kav2001c wrote:

@Anonymous

I would argue most of our holidays are very obviously based on RELIGIOUS groups not any sort of union influence (which actually should also be a bone to pick for most people)

Good Friday, Christmas, Easter Monday

Others are more government oriented such as Canada Day, Victoria Day

Really Labour Day would be only national holiday that could be traced back to Union organizers

@stonechucker

The part of standing together is one of the things I find most disturbing about pro union mentality

Also interesting argument about "requiring" unions

Notice Euro countires such as France are basically union-free? And yet they have better social services and more holidays and rights than we do? Hmm....

Actually Canada is very highly unionized (too highly; percentage of our workforce who are unionized is more than DOUBLE the USA, notice how much more we pay for literally everything? Higher minimum wage does not even come close to closing that disparity)

@stonechucker wrote:

As a union member, 20+ years, and a very proud union member at that, I stand with my sisters and brothers across the labour force, union and unionized.

If it were not for unions, we wouldn’t have labour laws, holidays, paid vacations.

unions protect the public from the greed of the rich.  We stand up for all of us, and all of you.

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Wow finally something in the lounge we can sink our teeth into!!!

I think this is a great subject especially brought up on the 127th anniversary (to the day) the NBEW (now the IBEW) was founded by 10 workers!!

You  mention holidays and only labour day what about weekends?  Saturday and Sunday every week of the year.  

You mentioned Postal workers do you realise they are some of the most at risk for work place injuries?

CUPW in the early 80's fought for maternity leave for women as they shouldn't be penalized at work for being the only ones who can bare children and that lead to the National program where all women are entitled to Maternity leave.

Are you saying employers would willingly give this to people?

Unions do fight for their members but it goes beyond that.  What they win or bargain for trickles down to  all workforces.

I am part of the Union of National Defence Employees and we are apart of Public Service Alliance of Canada. 

Here is one of the objects of what they stand for. 

To obtain for all workers the best standards of compensation and other conditions of employment and to protect the right and interests of all workers

[Anonymous]

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@kav2001c wrote:

@@stonechucker

The part of standing together is one of the things I find most disturbing about pro union mentality

---

Wow. Working people united as a front against corporate greed and exploitation and you find that disturbing.

Yikes.

[Anonymous]

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@kav2001c wrote:

@Anonymous

I would argue most of our holidays are very obviously based on RELIGIOUS groups not any sort of union influence (which actually should also be a bone to pick for most people)

Good Friday, Christmas, Easter Monday

Others are more government oriented such as Canada Day, Victoria Day

Really Labour Day would be only national holiday that could be traced back to Union organizers

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Religious, government sure...but who would have *driven* being *paid* for those days and not working? My bottom dollar would be unions.

And...

I'll give you Sunday for certain religious reasons. But Saturday? Yeah I know no pay but no work either.

Of course the real enemy of working people is automation.

[kav2001c]

@Anonymous

I would argue most of our holidays are very obviously based on RELIGIOUS groups not any sort of union influence (which actually should also be a bone to pick for most people)

Good Friday, Christmas, Easter Monday

Others are more government oriented such as Canada Day, Victoria Day

Really Labour Day would be only national holiday that could be traced back to Union organizers

@stonechucker

The part of standing together is one of the things I find most disturbing about pro union mentality

Also interesting argument about "requiring" unions

Notice Euro countires such as France are basically union-free? And yet they have better social services and more holidays and rights than we do? Hmm....

Actually Canada is very highly unionized (too highly; percentage of our workforce who are unionized is more than DOUBLE the USA, notice how much more we pay for literally everything? Higher minimum wage does not even come close to closing that disparity)

@stonechucker wrote:

As a union member, 20+ years, and a very proud union member at that, I stand with my sisters and brothers across the labour force, union and unionized.

If it were not for unions, we wouldn’t have labour laws, holidays, paid vacations.

unions protect the public from the greed of the rich.  We stand up for all of us, and all of you.

[Anonymous]

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@kav2001c wrote:

Stats are LEGALLY required by government. Union has NOTHING to do with it (but of course they will lead you to think they do)

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And who do you suppose drove governments to make them into law? Hmm? Certainly no employer would sidle up to the government and say "hey you know what would be a good idea...requiring us employers to pay our people for nothing". As if!

Thank you stonechucker.

[stonechucker]

As a union member, 20+ years, and a very proud union member at that, I stand with my sisters and brothers across the labour force, union and unionized.

Unions fight for equality before self.  We stand up for those who are marginalized, we support the community in the workplace, and in the areas we live.  

We we fight for legislation that helps all people in society.

We protest against those who strive to profit from greed, and those who wish to cut social services which assist those who need assistance in various ways.

If it were not for unions, we wouldn’t have labour laws, holidays, paid vacations.

unions protect the public from the greed of the rich.  We stand up for all of us, and all of you.

[kav2001c]

@Anonymous

And I shall be the Christmas Grinch for this thread

Unions serve no purpose other than to themselves

If they negotiate a poor contract on their members behalf then wtf are you paying them for?

If they negotiate a fair contract on their members behalf then their only purpose is to keep pushing for more than the employee is entitled to until the company decides it is no longer economically viable to maintain the business in a city like Oshawa and closes up shop

Groups such as Canada Post are beyond laughable as their salaries and working conditions are the envy of many who would gladly quit their jobs and jump ship in an instant if the chance was there

People always point to things like the "necessity" of unions back in industrial revolution etc but there is no causality here (correlation does not imply causation). They simply benefitted from being in the right place at the right time.

As to your specific examples;

It costs far less to pay for your own benefits (I am self employed) than a union member loses each paycheck

Stats are LEGALLY required by government. Union has NOTHING to do with it (but of course they will lead you to think they do)