How are Text Messages Counted?

[sa7375]

I joined only three days back (Oct 28, 2018) with a $10 plan that allows me 50 outgoing  and unlimited incoming text messages. I haven't sent any — not even one — text message since the day I signed in but my usage today shows having sent 11 messages.

Any ideas how would that show up?

@CS_Agent

[will13am]

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@sa7375 wrote:

As I come to close this support request, I sincerely thank you for your valuable guidance and patience. Appreciated.

I finally settled for your advice and denied the Phone app the SMS permission. I was hesitant doing so earlier because of Android’s warning that the app may not work as intended but finding no other alternative, I took that chance. It seems to be working now.

Thank you for your compliments for my investing so much time into troubleshooting this behavior. Yes, it cost me time and lost 33 SMS messages (out of my quota of 50)  but I’m glad that I was able to get a better understanding of this rogue behavior, in that, there isn’t anything wrong with my phones, apps or even Android Oreo 8.1.0.

Have a nice weekend. 

@stonechucker  @RobertQc  @srlawren

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The warning that app may not work as intended is standard boiler plate stuff.  Obviously each permission has an associated function.  Without SMS, the dialer may be missing something, but in this case nothing important.  

[Anonymous]

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@sa7375 wrote:there isn’t anything wrong with my phones, apps or even Android Oreo 8.1.0.

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Or Public Mobile. 🙂

[sa7375]

As I come to close this support request, I sincerely thank you for your valuable guidance and patience. Appreciated.

I finally settled for your advice and denied the Phone app the SMS permission. I was hesitant doing so earlier because of Android’s warning that the app may not work as intended but finding no other alternative, I took that chance. It seems to be working now.

Thank you for your compliments for my investing so much time into troubleshooting this behavior. Yes, it cost me time and lost 33 SMS messages (out of my quota of 50)  but I’m glad that I was able to get a better understanding of this rogue behavior, in that, there isn’t anything wrong with my phones, apps or even Android Oreo 8.1.0.

Have a nice weekend. 

@stonechucker  @RobertQc  @srlawren

[srlawren]

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@will13am wrote:

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I would deal with this issue very differently by going to the android dialer app permission settings, selecting SMS permission to off.  Then it doesn't matter whether the PM SIM is the smoking gun or not. 

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@sa7375 I have to say, I 100% agree with @will13am here.  I don't know why it's behaving differently with SpeakOut, but the fact remains that this is a known behaviour on phones that use Google's dialer (most Android manufacturers replace it with their own--but the Nexus and Pixel lines definitely do not, and I think Essential may be the only other one--but don't quote me on that).  The other relevant fact is that turning of SMS permission on the dialer stops it.  So, for the duration of the time you're on a metered SMS plan [at any carrier] at least, I would strongly recommend you disable the SMS permission and forget about it.

[will13am · Accepted solution]

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@sa7375 wrote:

I’ve gone through some interesting troubleshooting and thought it’ll interest you.

After my last post I posted a message on the Google Nexus Product Support Forum (see the attached snapshot) and was advised to reboot into Safe Mode to identify if it was a rogue app causing those texts to originate. I did that and even in the Safe Mode, those five texts were sent. So it wasn’t a rogue app.

Fortunately I have another identical phone running an identical OS —  a Nexus 5X running 8.1.0 — registered to SpeakOut and thought of replacing the SpeakOut-SIM with the PM-SIM to see if the texts are repeated on that phone. Interestingly, the texts were repeated on the other phone too — though reduced by one to four texts. Please see the snapshot. So neither of the two phone is a problem.

Do also note that the other phone with the SpeakOut-SIM never sends any such messages.

So I come to the conclusion that the problem is the PM-SIM. Any agreements, disagreements or suggestions will be appreciated.

@NDesai @stonechucker @will13am

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That is some extensive testing over a handful of text messages.  I commend you for the effort taken.  From my perspective, I would deal with this issue very differently by going to the android dialer app permission settings, selecting SMS permission to off.  Then it doesn't matter whether the PM SIM is the smoking gun or not. 

[sa7375]

I’ve gone through some interesting troubleshooting and thought it’ll interest you.

After my last post I posted a message on the Google Nexus Product Support Forum (see the attached snapshot) and was advised to reboot into Safe Mode to identify if it was a rogue app causing those texts to originate. I did that and even in the Safe Mode, those five texts were sent. So it wasn’t a rogue app.

Fortunately I have another identical phone running an identical OS —  a Nexus 5X running 8.1.0 — registered to SpeakOut and thought of replacing the SpeakOut-SIM with the PM-SIM to see if the texts are repeated on that phone. Interestingly, the texts were repeated on the other phone too — though reduced by one to four texts. Please see the snapshot. So neither of the two phone is a problem.

Do also note that the other phone with the SpeakOut-SIM never sends any such messages.

So I come to the conclusion that the problem is the PM-SIM. Any agreements, disagreements or suggestions will be appreciated.

@NDesai @stonechucker @will13am

[NDesai]

@sa7375 Either remove texting permission for the dialer app or disable visual voicemail from dial app settings. 

[srlawren]

@sa7375 here is the main thread (that many other replies on other threads point to) about 7723 on Pixels.  Since your Nexus also uses Google's dialer, it has the same issue.

https://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Phones-Hardware/Pixel-on-Oreo-tries-to-send-Int-l-SMS...

[Anonymous]

This has been run around on several occassions on this forum.

Apparently you need to turn off SMS as a permission in the Dialer app. Or else everytime you reboot it'll do it again.

And like with Apple, it's an Android thing. Not Public Mobile.

[sa7375]

Sorry, but that was not what I intended. I would indeed do my part of the homework before burdening anyone and that's part of the deal that I accepted opting for PM

Thank you for referring to that option where the details of the outgoing texts could be located (which I hadn't located earlier). I got to that and it shows texting to 7723 everyday. Please see the attached snapshots.

So here is a new mystery for me to resolve. What is the number 7723, what initiates this triggering and how to block this. I believe the ball is back in my court 

PS. Strangely though it's happening only to my phone with PM.

@srlawren

[srlawren]

@stonechucker I get it.  Yes everyone should take the time to research and figure out how everything works but quite honestly very few people actually have the rare combination of the time and the inkling to do so.  Your original reply telling them how to look it up themselves was great and helpful but then you turned around and lashed out at them for not knowing it already. I'm just saying I don't think that part was called for.  Just remember that not everyone has had the years of experience with PM that we've had--it's features, it's quirks, it's idiosyncracies, etc. 

[stonechucker]

@srlawren, well I'm sorry, but a few posts back this poster is saying he can find nothing on Google about this, and that it's PM issue to resolve.  I'm just responding in kind as felt offended as it seems this poster is saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

Subscribers need to research.  This is not a system that those who do not research can just walk into.  

[srlawren]

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@stonechucker wrote:

Google that number, you'll see the related information.  For being a fan of self-serve and knowing everything, you really don't know what you're doing.

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@stonechucker no need to get nasty, dude. 

[stonechucker]

@sa7375, you can do this yourself.  Login to self-serve, and look at your usage history.

You'll see the 11 SMS listed there, with the dial-out numbers (most likely 6 digits).

Google that number, you'll see the related information.  

Edited by the poster.

[krazykiwi]

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@stonechucker wrote:

Specifically, on Android, this has been happening in version 8.0.1, possibly 8.0.  You not finding results on Google doesn't mean it isn't happening.

It's a feature that is certainly present on the latest Pixel 3 devices, and Pixel 2 devices which have updated to newer operating systems.

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And most certainly carried out by iphones!

[sa7375]

I'm not looking forward to any reset or additional grace of text messages. I simply wish to know the details of these texts that were initiated from my account as I have not experienced anything like this before.

The PM can investigate from their logs of my account as to which numbers were these texts sent to. That will settle the debate of these phantom texts once and for all. 

[stonechucker]

Specifically, on Android, this has been happening in version 8.0.1, possibly 8.0.  You not finding results on Google doesn't mean it isn't happening.

It's a feature that is certainly present on the latest Pixel 3 devices, and Pixel 2 devices which have updated to newer operating systems.

[sa7375]

Re your analysis “I just want to make it clear to everyone that both iPhones and some Android phones sends automatic texts for different reasons. iPhones sends texts to verify Apple services such as iCloud, iMessage etc. whereas on Android devices such Pixels, it's the dialer app that sends texts. It does that to verify Visual Voicemail.”

Google search returns no results of any such automatic texts or phenomena by Android or IOS. Further, I’ve experienced no such problems of automatic generation of texts by Android with my previous company.

System generating 11 texts in 3 days automatically isn’t authentic or credible information and should be construed as drainage rather than seepage. PM should be able to investigate and trace these texts in detail through their logs of my account. 

[srlawren]

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@smp99 wrote:

I am starting to wonder if this plan causes more headaches than it's worth.

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@smp99 yeah I've voiced this concern ever since PM announced this plan.  It's really not a good idea to have metered text messages in 2018, even for casual users. 

@NDesai brought up the grandfathered (no longer offered) plans that had an option for Canada-only texting and how they would cause issues when iMessage or [pure]Android Dialer tries to send SMS messages to numbers outside of Canada.  I actually strongly believe this is the main reason PM ditched the Canada-wide texting option when they overhauled the plans [sometime in 2016, I think?] to only offer either global or no texting at all.  This was smart.  But the $10 plan represents a step backward from that.

[krazykiwi]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@krazykiwi wrote:

As mentioned Goodwill is an integral part of doing business and it is by no means black and white. Not giving the same suggestion to one individual as given to another is simply wrong. We all (and I use the term loosely) have recommended asking the MODs for goodwill and it is a little hypocritical to now condenm it regardless of MOD wait times. 

The text count only becomes an issue on the $10 plan so to simply eliminate the concern make all text to those numbers (both IOS and Android) free or simply make the first few days on that paticular plan free text. If you are getting a limited text plan it is highly unlikely you will abuse a few days of free texting.

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I like the idea of a short grace period. Kinda like the 3g data being full speed for a couple days.

Except as NDesai says, even after a re-boot of some phones, those auto-background texts will go out and be counted again.

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Yeah, one thing I have learned is you can never please everyone, but at least this way it takes the sting out of new $10 plan signups.

[Anonymous]

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@krazykiwi wrote:

As mentioned Goodwill is an integral part of doing business and it is by no means black and white. Not giving the same suggestion to one individual as given to another is simply wrong. We all (and I use the term loosely) have recommended asking the MODs for goodwill and it is a little hypocritical to now condenm it regardless of MOD wait times. 

The text count only becomes an issue on the $10 plan so to simply eliminate the concern make all text to those numbers (both IOS and Android) free or simply make the first few days on that paticular plan free text. If you are getting a limited text plan it is highly unlikely you will abuse a few days of free texting.

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I like the idea of a short grace period. Kinda like the 3g data being full speed for a couple days.

Except as NDesai says, even after a re-boot of some phones, those auto-background texts will go out and be counted again.

[krazykiwi]

As mentioned Goodwill is an integral part of doing business and it is by no means black and white. Not giving the same suggestion to one individual as given to another is simply wrong. We all (and I use the term loosely) have recommended asking the MODs for goodwill and it is a little hypocritical to now condenm it regardless of MOD wait times. 

The text count only becomes an issue on the $10 plan so to simply eliminate the concern make all text to those numbers (both IOS and Android) free or simply make the first few days on that paticular plan free text. If you are getting a limited text plan it is highly unlikely you will abuse a few days of free texting.

[smp99]

I am starting to wonder if this plan causes more headaches than it's worth.

I've said it before, bump the plan to $15 with unl text. Keep those already on this plan at $10 but also give them unl text. Of course if they move off, they cannot return.

[will13am]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@ShawnC13 wrote:

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This member should contact the mods.  They deserve to get what they have paid for just like any other customer.  Mods have reset SMS counts for others.  To have your amount reduced by 20% before you even send anything isn't fair to the customers. 

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Look at me mister anti-corporation defending the corporation 🙂

And I don't think it was right to have set that precedent. Goodwill to do with the business or of course a mistake fine. But not when it isn't their responsibility.

And the problem with not suggesting it to people now due to long lines isn't fair to them due to those that *did* get the unwarranted benefit.

So this kind of goodwill shouldn't've been started to begin with.

Customer pm's the mods complaining about this problem. The mods gently explain well actually it's your phone that did all that. Should we be responsible for that? The customer should agree well no. And away they go.

A notice somewhere during activation maybe warning of this possibility but of course who reads anything.

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Goodwill is not black and white, it's grey and case by case.  

[mimmo]

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And I don't think it was right to have set that precedent. Goodwill to do with the business or of course a mistake fine. But not when it isn't their responsibility.

And the problem with not suggesting it to people now due to long lines isn't fair to them due to those that *did* get the unwarranted benefit.

So this kind of goodwill shouldn't've been started to begin with.

Customer pm's the mods complaining about this problem. The mods gently explain well actually it's your phone that did all that. Should we be responsible for that? The customer should agree well no. And away they go.

A notice somewhere during activation maybe warning of this possibility but of course who reads anything

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@AnonymousIts one of the issues with having a public forum to discuss issues and solutions and having other customers share their knowledge and experience.  

The info is out there for all to see in one location and with a simple search. Customers  recall solutions and suggest similar course of action based on precidence. To stop this make an official or non official policy and these requests will stop.  (like they did about pm -pm transfers)

but to  say don't contact mods because there is a long line in front of you is simply  wrong.  Mods are here to help everyone. A message sent today does not affect the people who have been waiting patiently in line before.  

Anyways I believe the mod reply time is easy to solve if PM wants to:

• train more mods
• add overtime (if mods are willing to work extra hours/shifts)
• invest in better infrastructure (self serve and ticketing)
• Make an announcement thread called read this before sending a private message. so it is the first thing people see when loading the forum, in it have
  • Clear instructions in a visible location not buried in a KB article or the lounge announcement thread
  • Clearly state  that reply time is a "tad bit longer" (that is the official stance, not days over just a tad bit) 
  • How much of the backlog can be fixed by reducing multiple messages
• slow down on promotions till service gets back to the "often you will get a message within a couple hours"

opps it turned into a small  rant sorry.

[NDesai]

I just want to make it clear to everyone that both iPhones and some Android phones sends automatic texts for different reasons. iPhones sends texts to verify Apple services such as iCloud, iMessage etc. whereas on Android devices such Pixels, it's the dialer app that sends texts. It does that to verify Visual Voicemail. PM does not provide visual voicemail and so it fails. Experience is different for those with international texting. Since i have Canada-wide texting on my grandfathered plan, I received multiple texts stating i don't have access to sending texts outside of Canada. This happened on my Pixel 2 last year and i received about 6 messages every reboot. Now if someone has international texts, they will not get any texts back. The dialer app just tries about 6 times to verify visual voicemail, and it does that every reboot.  

[stonechucker]

You need to understand that Apple and Android phones have the abilities turned on by default.  Sure it'd be great to have the knowledge of this (and for the WiFi Assist type things too) explained when you sign-up or buy the device... but as the consumer, you should be doing your research about the entire package.

The companies making these devices are looking at the bigger markets in the States and the UK (and others) where folks have unlimited data packages (or extremely high data caps) where the default settings are great for those who need them and can freely*  use them.

[mimmo]

@sa7375  there is nothing wrong with the pm message count.  there are some automatic sms that are sent by the os both by android and iphone.  look in your usage hstory provided in selfserve and share teh number in the thread, google the number and see what the results are.  if the sms are to some of your actual contacts that is a differnet story. 

[will13am]

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@sa7375 wrote:

@ShawnC13 Thank you for your support and understanding.

Here is the context. After signing up for PM on Oct 28, I installed the SIM on a separate phone — a Google Nexus 5X with Android 8 — and haven’t really used it for any purpose other than evaluation. Why a separate phone? I wanted to be comfortable with the new service and be sure of my decision before porting my number or saying good bye to my old provider. I’m glad having made the decision of wetting my feet before jumping.

Like I said earlier, I didn’t send even one text message and so says my phone history. Indeed I have received many incoming messages albeit all from PM for welcome, activations etc. There is something amiss in the PM’s usage stats.

@will13am

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@ShawnC13 wrote:

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@will13am wrote:

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@dna2016 wrote:

@sa7375 that is very odd.  If you haven't actually sent an outgoing text then there shouldn't be any outgoing count.  Definitely recommend getting in touch with the MODS.  This is the first I've heard of this type of situation.  Hopefully one of the oracles has seen something like this and can provide some insight.  

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You do realize there are sync features in both iOS and android that cause SMS to be sent without the user knowing it.  Just because the user didn't send it, that doesn't mean the phone didn't send it automatically.  I would suggest not clogging the moderator team inbox with frivolous investigations.  There is nothing wrong with the usage meter. 

With respect to the question of how usage on the $10 plan is metered, this thread OP explains everything.

https://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Announcements/Plan-updates-new-10-limited-talk-and-te...

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This member should contact the mods.  They deserve to get what they have paid for just like any other customer.  Mods have reset SMS counts for others.  To have your amount reduced by 20% before you even send anything isn't fair to the customers. 

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The Nexus 5x is an a pure android device.  I am using a pure android device also.  The android dialer consumes SMS.  It's legit usage.  I respectfully disagree with me peer that legit usage is entitled to a usage adjustment.  What has been offered in the past is goodwill and not entitlement.  There's no proven issue with the usage meter.  If you wish to, go ahead and ask for goodwill.   Here's a past thread on the topic of phantom SMS usage.

https://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Phones-Hardware/Pixel-on-Oreo-tries-to-send-Int-l-SMS...

[sa7375]

@ShawnC13 Thank you for your support and understanding.

Here is the context. After signing up for PM on Oct 28, I installed the SIM on a separate phone — a Google Nexus 5X with Android 8 — and haven’t really used it for any purpose other than evaluation. Why a separate phone? I wanted to be comfortable with the new service and be sure of my decision before porting my number or saying good bye to my old provider. I’m glad having made the decision of wetting my feet before jumping.

Like I said earlier, I didn’t send even one text message and so says my phone history. Indeed I have received many incoming messages albeit all from PM for welcome, activations etc. There is something amiss in the PM’s usage stats.

@will13am

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@ShawnC13 wrote:

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@will13am wrote:

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@dna2016 wrote:

@sa7375 that is very odd.  If you haven't actually sent an outgoing text then there shouldn't be any outgoing count.  Definitely recommend getting in touch with the MODS.  This is the first I've heard of this type of situation.  Hopefully one of the oracles has seen something like this and can provide some insight.  

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You do realize there are sync features in both iOS and android that cause SMS to be sent without the user knowing it.  Just because the user didn't send it, that doesn't mean the phone didn't send it automatically.  I would suggest not clogging the moderator team inbox with frivolous investigations.  There is nothing wrong with the usage meter. 

With respect to the question of how usage on the $10 plan is metered, this thread OP explains everything.

https://productioncommunity.publicmobile.ca/t5/Announcements/Plan-updates-new-10-limited-talk-and-te...

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This member should contact the mods.  They deserve to get what they have paid for just like any other customer.  Mods have reset SMS counts for others.  To have your amount reduced by 20% before you even send anything isn't fair to the customers. 

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