topic Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones in Announcements

GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Brooke_C — Fri, 05 Apr 2019 18:03:57 GMT

Hey Community,

Public Mobile has identified a small number of select devices that, as of April 6th, 2019, will no longer provide accurate location functionality. These devices may, however, obtain some location functionality through wireless tower triangulation so Emergency Services may continue to get locations for these customers.

Public Mobile will communicate to all impacted customers to make them aware of this issue and encourage them to download the applicable software patch to their devices to resolve this issue.

Public Mobile has worked with manufacturers to roll out fixes to affected devices. If your device is listed below, please update your devices to the latest software.

Alcatel A50 (5085O)
Alcatel 1 (5033O)
Alcatel Lume (A466T)
Alcatel Pixi 3(4) (A460T)
Alcatel Pixi 3(4.5) (5017O)

Some devices, however, will not receive software patches due to their age. If your device is listed below, please be aware of this issue and exercise caution if you find yourself in a 911 situation. Alternatively, you can purchase a new device.

Alcatel A392A / A392CC
Alcatel Idol X+ (6043A)
RIM BlackBerry Curve (9320)
RIM BlackBerry Curve 3G (9300)
RIM BlackBerry Torch (9800)
RIM BlackBerry Bold (9700)
RIM BlackBerry Curve (9360)
RIM BlackBerry Bold (9780)
RIM BlackBerry Bold (9790)
HUAWEI Ascend Y330
HTC Desire 320a (0PF1100)
Motorola Charm (MB502)
Motorola Defy (MB525)
Motorola Key (EX225)
Motorola Milestone (A853)
Nokia 3710
Nokia E71
Nokia E72
Sonim XP5560
Sonim XP5560IS

-Public Mobile Community Team

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Munday — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 03:43:25 GMT

I got a text from PM that my phone is one of the models affected by this problem. How does PM know what model phone I have? I now have a Motorola G4 Play, but did have a Blackberry Curve 9360 when I first signed up with PM last year. Does the IMEI come into play here?

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

computergeek541 — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 03:58:07 GMT

@Munday wrote:
I got a text from PM that my phone is one of the models affected by this problem. How does PM know what model phone I have? I now have a Motorola G4 Play, but did have a Blackberry Curve 9360 when I first signed up with PM last year. Does the IMEI come into play here?

Public Mobile knows the model of your phone by IMEI. They know it as soon as you connect to the network, and also know any time you switch to a different device.

I'm looking at the list of some of the affected devices, and some of those are 10+ years old. I know that in the case of the Nokia E71, those generations of Symbian phones had next to a useless GPS chipset anyways, often taking minutes to get a GPS lock even if you were under a clear sky. I do wonder how accurate cell phone tower triangulation is, but it clearly wouldn't be as accurate as the device's internal GPS.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Munday — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 03:59:48 GMT

@computergeek541 wrote:
@Munday wrote:
I got a text from PM that my phone is one of the models affected by this problem. How does PM know what model phone I have? I now have a Motorola G4 Play, but did have a Blackberry Curve 9360 when I first signed up with PM last year. Does the IMEI come into play here?
Public Mobile knows the model of your phone by IMEI. They know it as soon as you connect to the network, and also know any time you switch to a different device.

Ok, Thanks. Since my Motorola G4 Play isn’t on the list Moderator Brooke wrote, do you think the PM text I received is going off the IMEI from my original Blackberry Curve?

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 03:59:54 GMT

@computergeek541 wrote:
@Munday wrote:
I got a text from PM that my phone is one of the models affected by this problem. How does PM know what model phone I have? I now have a Motorola G4 Play, but did have a Blackberry Curve 9360 when I first signed up with PM last year. Does the IMEI come into play here?
Public Mobile knows the model of your phone by IMEI. They know it as soon as you connect to the network, and also know any time you switch to a different device.

I'm looking at the list of some of the affected devices, and some of those are 10+ years old. I know that in the case of the Nokia E71, those generations of Symbian phones had next to a useless GPS chipset anyways, often taking minutes to get a GPS lock even if you were under a clear sky. I do wonder how accurate cell phone tower triangulation is, but it clearly wouldn't be as accurate as the device's internal GPS.

How does Speakout do it then? Since you have to provide an IMEI from the account that can apparently be different from the phone itself?

And then...isn't it curious that the OP got the text but the phone he has now isn't on the list.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

computergeek541 — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 04:10:12 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@computergeek541 wrote:
@Munday wrote:
I got a text from PM that my phone is one of the models affected by this problem. How does PM know what model phone I have? I now have a Motorola G4 Play, but did have a Blackberry Curve 9360 when I first signed up with PM last year. Does the IMEI come into play here?
Public Mobile knows the model of your phone by IMEI. They know it as soon as you connect to the network, and also know any time you switch to a different device.

I'm looking at the list of some of the affected devices, and some of those are 10+ years old. I know that in the case of the Nokia E71, those generations of Symbian phones had next to a useless GPS chipset anyways, often taking minutes to get a GPS lock even if you were under a clear sky. I do wonder how accurate cell phone tower triangulation is, but it clearly wouldn't be as accurate as the device's internal GPS.
How does Speakout do it then? Since you have to provide an IMEI from the account that can apparently be different from the phone itself?
And then...isn't it curious that the OP got the text but the phone he has now isn't on the list.

Who knows what Speakout is doing. They could be using an IMEI that is manually typed in for all we know. It could be the first IMEI to connect to the network, or there could just be a long delay. All I can tell you is that when the phone connects to the network, the carrier knows the IMEI. Whether Rogers is sharing that information with Speakout is a different story. This is the very reason that IMEI should be avoided for number porting from most carriers, although I realize that Speakout requires it.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

computergeek541 — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 04:13:05 GMT

@Munday wrote:
@computergeek541 wrote:
@Munday wrote:
I got a text from PM that my phone is one of the models affected by this problem. How does PM know what model phone I have? I now have a Motorola G4 Play, but did have a Blackberry Curve 9360 when I first signed up with PM last year. Does the IMEI come into play here?
Public Mobile knows the model of your phone by IMEI. They know it as soon as you connect to the network, and also know any time you switch to a different device.
Ok, Thanks. Since my Motorola G4 Play isn’t on the list Moderator Brooke wrote, do you think the PM text I received is going off the IMEI from my original Blackberry Curve?

If you look at the list of affected devices, I don't see the Moto G Play as having anything in common with the others, and it has a fairly recent Qualcomm Snapdragon chipset when compared to everything mentioned in the affected device list. I'm almost certain that your Moto G4 Play is fine. It's kind of like when there's a car recall and the manufactuers send recall notices to everyone registered to have purchased a model, even though they know that many of the vehicles are no longer in use, or have been sold/traded-in/upgraded.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Munday — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 04:17:17 GMT

@computergeek541 wrote:
@Munday wrote:
@computergeek541 wrote:
@Munday wrote:
I got a text from PM that my phone is one of the models affected by this problem. How does PM know what model phone I have? I now have a Motorola G4 Play, but did have a Blackberry Curve 9360 when I first signed up with PM last year. Does the IMEI come into play here?
Public Mobile knows the model of your phone by IMEI. They know it as soon as you connect to the network, and also know any time you switch to a different device.
Ok, Thanks. Since my Motorola G4 Play isn’t on the list Moderator Brooke wrote, do you think the PM text I received is going off the IMEI from my original Blackberry Curve?
If you look at the list of affected devices, I don't see the Moto G Play as having anything in common with the others, and it has a fairly recent Qualcomm Snapdragon chipset when compared to everything mentioned in the affected device list. I'm almost certain that your Moto G4 Play is fine. It's kind of like when there's a car recall and the manufactuers send recall notices to everyone registered to have purchased a model, even though they know that many of the vehicles are no longer in use, or have been sold/traded-in/upgraded.

Good explanation. Thanks Folks for your time.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

kav2001c — Sun, 07 Apr 2019 19:12:59 GMT

@Anonymous

This is false

The second your cell phone registers on the Speakout network (place a call or send a txt) you now need to provide that new IMEI in order to port the number

@computergeek541

That is why many people fail port with Speakout

They try using older IMEI after upgrade

(Which is backwards from many networks, eg Bell/Solo/Virgin who always has original IMEI hardcoded on account of device you purchased/upgraded. They can SEE new IMEI but require OLD IMEI to port)

No idea if Telus brands follow Rogers but I strongly suspect they would be more like Bell since they copy them in most things

@Anonymous wrote:
@computergeek541 wrote:
Public Mobile knows the model of your phone by IMEI. They know it as soon as you connect to the network, and also know any time you switch to a different device.

How does Speakout do it then? Since you have to provide an IMEI from the account that can apparently be different from the phone itself?
And then...isn't it curious that the OP got the text but the phone he has now isn't on the list.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Apr 2019 19:19:22 GMT

@kav2001c

I agree with what would seem to be a properly technical way to do it. But it seems that people struggle with porting from Speakout and apparently, from what I understand, this is due to needing to use the IMEI on file and not necessarily the current device.

But I'm just going on what I think I've gathered from this place...not personal experience.

I'm open to it all being wrong. You don't need to be quite so harsh.

Do you have actual personal experience porting from Speakout after changing devices while there?

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Jessica_T — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 01:39:51 GMT

Will this mess up google maps or only emergency services?

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

computergeek541 — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 01:59:02 GMT

@Jessica_T wrote:
Will this mess up google maps or only emergency services?

My understanding is that it's the accuracy of locations for anything that uses the GPS, including mapping software, although only some devices will be affected, especially older ones.

Here's some information from one of the standalone GPS device manufactuers, although Garmin is saying position accuracy isn't a problem with their devices: https://support.garmin.com/ms-MY/?faq=zWQY6Z2kFiAuY9kDnDBgZ6\

and from another company: https://www.orolia.com/resources/blog/lisa-perdue/2018/gps-2019-week-rollover-what-you-need-know

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 03:02:12 GMT

@Jessica_T wrote:
Will this mess up google maps or only emergency services?

Seems to be a thing. A little searching and I find GPS Week Rollover. Happens every 1k weeks due to a limitation in the datastream from the satellites. It last happened in Aug 1999.

Perhaps a way to test it is to use a GPS program and if it comes up with a date of about 20 years ago then the GPS in the device is not capable of dealing with the effect.

As always...I'm no expert 🙂

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

kav2001c — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 14:18:14 GMT

But my flip phone still works right? Its not on the list....

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

dna2016 — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 16:22:26 GMT

@Munday when you first set up your account with PM you would have entered your IMEI, and that's why you received the text. It's going off of your prior device, not your current. I'm not sure about how they would know your IMEI as soon as you connect to the network (regarding when you switched to your new phone) @computergeek541, how does a company know the IMEI when you put your SIM in a different phone? I don't see how that is possible, but please educate me on this because that is definitely new to me.

@Munday definitely nothing to worry about, if anything maybe contact a MOD to see if there's a way to update your IMEI so you won't get any messages that apply to your old device. I checked "My Account" and I don't see any options to change the IMEI.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

dna2016 — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 16:28:39 GMT

WOOWWWWWWW!!!! These are some pretty old devices. Didn't think I would ever hear about the Blackberry Curve 9300 series and Nokia E71. When I use to work in the industry over 10 years ago those were some of the phones I was selling. I'm surprised these phones have even lasted that long, especially the Blackberry's. People if you have one of these phones I highly recommend it's time to upgrade. If you made it last this long then definitely my hats off to you......but it's time to move on, shed a tear for the memories, lol.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

computergeek541 — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 17:21:28 GMT

@dna2016 wrote:
@computergeek541, how does a company know the IMEI when you put your SIM in a different phone? I don't see how that is possible, but please educate me on this because that is definitely new to me.

@Munday definitely nothing to worry about, if anything maybe contact a MOD to see if there's a way to update your IMEI so you won't get any messages that apply to your old device. I checked "My Account" and I don't see any options to change the IMEI.

There's really no reason to update the information on the account. The IMEI that Public Mobile has on record would only come into play if porting the number out. Howver, you'd be much better off using the Public Mobile account number. The IMEI on record could be wrong, invalid, of an old device, or just nonsense such a much of ones and it would make no difference to your service. There have been some talk about networks blocking duplicate IMEIs or IMEI numbers that are made up of all zeros, but other than that, it really doesn't matter.

The IMEI of your device is automatically transmitted from the device to the network as soon as it conects. There is no choice on this matter, nor do you have to do anything for Public Mobile/Telus to know about it. It is also during this process that Public Mobile will check to see if the IMEI is blacklisted from use.

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

CalgaryBen — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 20:17:23 GMT

@computergeek541 wrote:
There have been some talk about networks blocking duplicate IMEIs or IMEI numbers that are made up of all zeros, but other than that, it really doesn't matter.

Agreed. Although right now IMEIs consisting of all zeros are not exempted from Canadian networks AFAIK. You'd be surprised at how many phones show up with all zeros if you could access a carrier's database... back in the day, one way to "unlock" a phone was to do a factory reset, which also cleared out the IMEI (unbenknownst to many users, following instructions found online).

@computergeek541 wrote:
The IMEI of your device is automatically transmitted from the device to the network as soon as it conects. There is no choice on this matter, nor do you have to do anything for Public Mobile/Telus to know about it. It is also during this process that Public Mobile will check to see if the IMEI is blacklisted from use.

I remember back when I was with Koodo, your current IMEI would show up in the self-serve portal under your account. When unlocking a phone (back then it was pay per unlock), I'd simply insert my Koodo SIM card into the phone I wanted to unlock (often I was unlocking for a friend or family member), make sure the IMEI had refreshed on the portal, and then call up Koodo and ask for an unlock. They'd ask... "is this for your current phone with IMEI XYZ?" to which I'd say "Yup!". Made it easiest for everybody (they knew I had the phone in my possession, and they could copy/paste the IMEI from their screen).

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

CalgaryBen — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 21:01:11 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Jessica_T wrote:
Will this mess up google maps or only emergency services?
Seems to be a thing. A little searching and I find GPS Week Rollover. Happens every 1k weeks due to a limitation in the datastream from the satellites. It last happened in Aug 1999.

Perhaps a way to test it is to use a GPS program and if it comes up with a date of about 20 years ago then the GPS in the device is not capable of dealing with the effect.

Yep... a thing!

I spent much of my weekend (Saturday evening, anyway) testing/validating things were working for the company that employs me, since GPS is everything to us (telematics). It's sort of the Y2K of GPS.

Old firmware could affect ability to acquire location for certain devices, but more likely to impact date/time functionality. A fleet of Chinese Boeing 787s were grounded due to this glitch... they should get ontop of their firmware upgrades! 😜 Fortunately no planes fell out of the air from this bug...

The more cataclysmic end-of-days event for us to be worrying about is January 19, 2038 at 03:14:07 GMT. This is the roll-over of Unix Epoch time, which is what pretty much all computers are based on. Now that will be a bigger deal... (mind you, as long as people use an unsigned int32 or bigger, it should all be good... this only affects programs that used signed int32 variables).

Re: GPS Time Reset Issue Impacting Location Accuracy on Select Phones

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 20:32:16 GMT

@CalgaryBen

So my idea of seeing if the GPS in ones phone or other devices shows a wrong date is a valid way of testing? Assuming the program one uses that displays a date is actually getting it from the GPS. And then there's Glonass...:)

This would be more of a general haven't looked kind of question...if one doesn't have their GPS on then will this emergency locating thing work at all anyway? I know some triangulation can be done using the cell towers but if the phone doesn't have the GPS radios on then how would it be found other than the general vicinity?